Q4. Abraham's Ethics and Faith

[Pastor Ralph]

Q4. What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith? Are they ethically and morally wrong? Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith? What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

[peggysue]

I think it shows that people can lack faith,that we are all human and need God,that we all fail with faith at times,sorry I do think Abraham a 'cad' haha

[Peggie]

What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith?

Without trying to be judgemental here, I'd have to say that Abraham and Sarah were not depending upon God to protect them. God had made a promise to Abraham so he should have known from that alone that God would protect him in order to fulfill the promise. But instead, Abraham came up with his own brainstorm...something we have all done!

Are they ethically and morally wrong?

How often have we all said, "I didn't lie, I just didn't tell everything I knew". When you leave out a vital point, one that can make a huge difference to the person you are talking to, it's a lie. Given that, I would have to say they were wrong.

Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of

faith?

I believe so.

What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

We should learn that God is always in control and that He never breaks His promises. We all need to put our faith into practice more and quit coming up with our own answers and solutions.

[Kyeland]

Q4. What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith? Are they ethically and morally wrong? Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith? What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

Q4. What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith? Are they ethically and morally wrong? Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith? What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

I think they are ethically and morally wrong.

Abram expresses a knowledge of the fear of God but says nothing about faith. His actions show little faith because he doesn't turn to God but relies on his own reasoning in going to Egypt and fears what will befall him there. Abram devises a plan to avoid what he fears, again relying on his own reasoning.

This reminds me of Hebrews which stresses maturing in the Lord and growing in faith. I look on Abram as being full of promise but lacking in this maturity that Hebrews speaks of at this point in his life.

It seems Abram doesn't suffer much consequence.

Perhaps the increase in his material fortunes speaks to him louder and teaches him more than suffering consequences would.

Kyeland

"Courage is fear that has said it's prayers."

[Helen Spaulding]

Q4. What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith? Are they ethically and morally wrong? Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith? What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

I am reluctant to sit in judgement on someone. God knew their hearts and what they were undergoing at this time. I'd think the first episode would have undergirded their faith enough to expect God to take care of the situation the second time, but I wasn't in the midst of their situation. As the Indian saying goes, "Don't criticise someone until you have walked a mile in their moccasins!"

What lessons should we learn? To trust God, no matter the circumstances, to be willing to die for Him if that is the outcome. Go to Him in prayer and ask for His guidance as well as His protection. As Esther said (when she decided to do as Mordicai told her she should), "I will petition the king for the lives of our people, and if I die, I die."

God, in His wisdom, allows us to go through trying times--sometimes to test our committment to Him, and sometimes to prove to us that He is able to protect us, and thus "grow" our faith. Sometimes, as we trust God and obey, the outcome has the wonderful result that someone who sees this becomes convinced of God's reality and comes to know Him!

[fiddler329]

It seems Abram doesn't suffer much consequence.

Perhaps the increase in his material fortunes speaks to him louder and teaches him more than suffering consequences would. 

Hmmm. I'm not so sure about this. One thing I've learned is that God makes connections in ways that are not immediately obvious to those of us who are affected by them. It occurs to me to wonder if there's a connection between Avram's denial of Sarai as his wife and her inability to bear a child to him. Your comment about maturity plays into this as well: it isn't until much later, after Avram has become Abraham (and Sarai, Sarah) and reached a higher level of spiritual maturity that Isaac is born. As they move through time, they allow themselves to learn more and more how to be servants, and Isaac eventually becomes the ultimate test of their commitment to God. So which was the "consequence:" Sarah's initial barreness, or the necessity to give the child who is eventually born completely into God's hands upon request?

[PressThrough]

Q4. What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith? Are they ethically and morally wrong? Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith? What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

Well I do believe I answered this question already. Things/feelings about certain behavior came through by which I wasn't even aware of. In which I learned they are not the cause of my sadness, but for why I am blessed. Trying to focus on them being right or wrong, or judging their faith threw me off track and out of line with God. So the lesson for me is to follow Jesus by The leading of The Holy Spirit.

Press Through and keep going forward in Love with God, and not to let the humaness of the flesh side track me. Focusing on other people, in what ever they did or didn't do for Christ, or as a responce to Gods call in their lives does provide for examples on dealing with situations, but my trust is in God and He is who I am following. Amen!

[grace]

Abraham's and Sarah's faith was compromised, when they allowed FEAR to

enter into their faith; they thought best to make their OWN plans.There was

a distrust in the divine providence of God.

They were etically and morally wrong; they concealed the truth and exposed

both his wife and the Egyptians to sin.

I believe the scripture is more intended that we might learn from their mistakes and bring about obedience in us.

We should learn that if God has called us to a ministry , then He will provide

the protection and equipping for this call.

[Sgt_Z_Squad]

4a.) What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith?

4a.) They are descendents of Adam, just like me. A sinner saved by grace.

4b.) Are they ethically and morally wrong?

4b.) I guess I have to give you a politician's answer which is no answer at all....Is it morally wrong to have the desire to live and if it means lying to keep yourself from being killed; do you?! I think they did nothing different than I would have done.

4c.) Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith?

4c.) I think the Scripture shows the fundamental human weakness of always wanting to be in control of one's own destiny.

4d.) What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

4d.) God is faithful, He keeps His promises and with God all things are possible.

[Abbey]

I didn't get a chance to come into the forum and post an answer to yesterday's question concerning adultery, but

my initial response was that God takes a very dim view of adultery, and yes it is possible to be forgiven for having commited adultery. I pondered the scriptures to be read and thought to myself, well here we go again - Abraham is up to his old tricks again, and God is bailing him out. It seemed as if Abraham was lining poor Sarah up for adultery. If God did take a dim view of it, why wasn't Abraham also threatened with punishment for his deception which caused Abimelech to take Sarah in the first place? Then I realized that I was looking at the situation with full knowledge of the ten commandments, so I know the law. Abraham had not been given the law. He had a fear of God, he had a belief that God would do as he promised, but he had no concept of sin as we do, or as the jews did once Moses received the law from God. The purpose of the law was to define sin as God sees it. Because it has so clearly been defined for us, we know adultery is wrong. Abraham had no such clear definition, so we see God working with Abraham right where Abraham is at. God's relationship with Abraham is a new work on God's part. It is showing us how God will be a man's friend, his guide, his refuge, his rescuer even when his actions are outside God's perfect will- even when that man(or woman) is operating in the flesh, God can redeem the circumstances and bring blessing. It doesn't make carnal actions less wrong or less sinful in God's sight, it just shows that inspite of them God is willing to act on behalf of those he calls his own and redeem them out of the circumstance. That there will be consequences to sin is plain to us as believers because we have experienced the consequences of having broken the law God has given us through the ten commandments, but if we had never known the law then we would not know sin or understand how God sees it. Abraham and Sarah are acting without knowledge of the law. So no, I don't think their actions are unethical for them. Their actions can be compared to Abimelech's taking Sarah, which he did with a clear conscience. God speaks to him in a dream, informing him that Sarah is a married woman. As soon as God does this, he has established the basis for sin and death as a consequence should Abimelech continue to keep Sarah and actually have relations with her. That's when Abimelech asks God if he will destroy an innocent nation because an action had been done without the awareness that it was a wrong action. God said to him" yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That's why I did not let you touch her." He continues on and tells Abimelech "Now (as in now that you know what wrong has been done?) return the man's wife..." Abimelech does (repents of his wrong action once he knows it is wrong?) and God does not punish him. What would have happened if Abimeleich had not returned Sarah? God said he would die as a result of his sin, but note that God educated Abimelech as to what sin was and gave him a chance to turn from it before he executed judgement upon him. Until God established what sin was, he even protected Abimelech from its consequences by not letting him touch Sarah, which would have brought death to Abimelech. God understood that Abimelech was acting out of good conscience even if it was in his own understanding of right and wrong and actually kept him from sinning by showing him grace, taking time to educate and warn him, and give him opportunity to turn from sin once it had been established as such. Abraham makes wrong decisions based on his own understanding of right and wrong because he has no law to guide him. God allows his grace to cover all of Abraham's fleshly blunders. Don't we see this happening with non-believers Didn't it happen for some of us? Before we knew Jesus as savior, we sinned without consciousness of the law. We might have had our own ideas about right or wrong, but we were not operating according to God's definition of those principles. It is God's grace that considered our ignorance so that " while we were yet sinners, he died for us." While Abraham was without the law, God intervened for him. While Abimelech was without knowledge of wrong, he protected him. Ethical behavoir only occurs in relationship to knowing God's laws. Who else established ethics if not God? So acting without knowledge of what sin is, without knowledge of the law, may be acting in ignorance but not unethically. Once the law is established and sin is made known, then choosing to act agaist the law and according to the flesh is unethical, which would make Abraham and Sarah ignorant and us unethical. And that is why we have Jesus, because we are consciously unethical (since we have the law) and choose to disobey. The consequence of willfully disobeying is death. That is what God told Abimelech. God has made us aware of sin so that we can never claim that we do what is wrong in good conscience. We call adultery, adultery because we know God's law. We call cheating, cheating because we know God's law. There is no vague comprhension of wrongdoing, but full awareness of it-which leads us right to the understanding of how precious Jesus' redepmtion is. He is God's intervention on our behalf, which was made while we were yet sinners (still in ignorance) because he loved us, and is completely available to us as believers who understand what sin is and still make wrong choicesaccording to the flesh; but also know God's wonderful grace and forgivenes the moment we repent and confess.

I don't thonk Abraham and Sarah were not unethical since they did not have the full revelation of God's laws, which are the basis for ethics. They acted in terms of their own understanding, which lacks wisdom, but they acted out of ignorance. I think it would be easy for me as a New Testament believer who has full access to God's laws and his plan for my salvation to judge Abraham and Sarah. Only yesterday I didn't see that concept of my attitude towards Abraham's actions. This makes me wonder how often I judge other's who I assume should know better than to do what I see them doing. I might ask myself, what in the world are they doing? The answer is whatever it is, it is according to the world's concept of right and wrong. At this moment I am awfully glad for God's grace. I need it. I have been made aware of being judgemental all too often as well as unethical in my own actions.

Now I understand how he can take things into his own hands and blatantly move forward without

[Kelley Walrath]

For their culture and time, they were not morally wrong in the actions they chose. I don't believe God intends for us to judge their actions. I think these accounts represent God's mercy and grace even we when sin. When we are His own, He will be faithful and fulfill all his promises to us.

I believe thse accounts are analogies and are eschatological. The nation of Isreal went into captivity under pagan nations due to wrong decisions made by kings and the people. Abraham made wrong decisions and his wife was in essence in captivity under pagan nations until the truth was made known. After the truth was known, Pharaoh a type of Satan, suffered for stealing the bride, yet Abraham and his family were blessed. Eventually, Christ will come in His glory to take his bride and will reclaim Isreal for Himself. Every knee shall bow and the truth that Jesus was and is the Messiah will be made known. A full restoration will happen for Isreal and there will be complete fulfillment of God's covenant.

Therefore, I believe these acccounts are there for us to see that when God makes a covenant, though we are yet sinners, He is sincere about it and it will be fulfilled.

[bass2be1]

The point most outstanding for me is that even when you feel there is no other way out, God is there. If I can remember that Abraham did not trust God, and God still had his back, then maybe I can remember to trust God more.

[Helen Williams]

Is our faith as strong as we want to believe it is? We never know until it is truly tested. It's easy for me to judge Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith. We can always say what someone else should or should not have done in a given situation.

Regardless of the situation that Abraham and Sarah find themselves in God is a promise keeper. We all have fallen short at some point in our lives but God is always faithful. We can believe ands trust Him to keep His promises.

AMEN TO THAT!

[Magnus]

It would be wrong for us to judge Abraham and Sarah. When Abraham left Ur to follow the call of God, he brought along his pagan ethics and morals

[sunilbernard]

Q4. What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith? Are they ethically and morally wrong? Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith? What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

Thier ethics are far from desireable and thier faith, weak. Because they are newbies. They just started off on a journey, not knowing where they are heading and suddenly this danger looms in front of them. Under those circumstances, its understandable that they have to take care of themselves by whatever means possible. We might scrutinise their ways and pass comments but its not for us to judge them. We are not under those circumstances. They were just beginners in the walk of faith and had not yet experienced God's protecting ways. We cannot say they are right or wrong because of the above said reasons. The Scriptures do show that they had lack of faith in the ways of God. But that was because they were yet to experience God's promises fulfilled. They were just obeying God and they just began their journey of faith. They had a lot more to learn in different stages.

We disciples should learn to trust our Lord implicitly and not lean on to our own understanding. God wants our obedience and trust. Not our riches and intelligence. If we recognise this fact, then we'd make better disciples.

[MannyVelarde]

Abram had faith enough to leave his hometown and the comfort of what was known to him and be obedient to God. We all have times of "taking matters into our own hands" time and again in our lives.

As we grow as believers, we begin to also grow in trust in our Lord. It is not as if He has to prove Himself, but that we are reeducating our response system, to trust in Him. As we will continue this study, we will see the trust that Abraham had, after he and Sarah began to grow in God.

Yes Abram was morally wrong and their choices were poor but I believe that God uses their example to show us His mercy and grace. Grace of God abounds all throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and Abram and Sarai's sin, has showed us the hope that God forgives those repentant hearts - - just like He does us today.

[heatherdills]

J think Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith were what they thought was right and left their fate to God. They may have been ethically and morally wrong, but they were human as we are and it is not for me to judge. The Scripture does not intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith. The lessons we disciples should learn from these stories are that even if we do not fully rely on God, that if we seek Him and have a promise from Him, that no matter what, He will get us to where He wants us to be.

[Godschild]

I believe that we all miss up sometimes But God is faithful even when we mess up None of us can say what we will do when our faith is put to the test. We can all learn from these two people

[Tom Nabors]

Q4. What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith? Are they ethically and morally wrong? Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith? What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

They certainly were not ethical as we understand the term ethical. And their faith seemed weak. It seems like the lesson we are to get from these stories is as faithless as we can sometimes be, God remains faithful. I believe these stories are to show us the stark contrast in faith between man and God. Man is often weak in faith. God is always faithful and His faith is perfect and will never change.

[Happy Feet]

This is a valid question, but, I'm afraid my answer my not be typical.

I agree with others that take the perspective that Abraham was not as equipped with knowledge of God as we are. Only God is the judge of people, tho it is our responsibilities to learn from our mistakes, I wonder how much we can learn from others. Only God knows the purpose of those positions we find ourselves in and what looks like mistakes to others may be just what God needed to happen to shape our faith.

Abraham was still in faith building mode when he allowed Sarah to become so vulnerable in our eyes. I build my faith by spending time with my Lord. and learning to listen and distiguish HIS in-planted ideas from my own. When an opportunity for action has passed, whether I took it or not- the results helps me know whose vice it was that revealed the idea. Perhaps these were some of Abrahams lessons to build his faith and teach him to listen and trust. We all learn from mistakes- and are blessed by God each time we seek His ways to correct our own actions and consequiences, as HE accpets and forgive our confessions. Do we accept HIS gift of loving forgiveness?

Sorry I am behind on the lessons, I need prayer for our 2 computers. The more I use them to study God's word while perpetually traveling, the

more they break down. I have walked an hour to get to a library today to get to the lesson while the truck is being repaired.

[cct1106]

Abraham and Sarah lack faith. Abraham told a lie in order to say his wife from her purity being threatened. No. The faith was lacking because if they would have been threathened God would have protected them. We should have learned to put all our faith in God for he is our helper and protector and will never leave us alone as long as we are doing his will.

[chobson]

Q4= I CANNOT JUDGE ABRAHAM AND SARAH'S ETHICS OR THEIR FAITH. THE BIBLE SAYS THAT ONLY GOD CAN SEE THE HEART OF MAN. I THINK THAT THIS IS AN EXAMPLE TO US. TO TRUST GOD IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES AND SITUATIONS AND BECAUSE WE ARE ARE HUMAN, IF WE SHOULD FAULTER OR FAIL GOD IS FAITHFUL TO US AND TO HIS PROMISES.

[June]

ABRAHAM JUST WANTED TO SURVIVE SO HE WOULD DO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING. LYING WS NOT THE WAY TO GO ABOUT IT THO. SARAH WAS A SUBMISSIVE WIFE AND WENT ALONG WITH HIM. IN THEIR TIME, IT PROBABLY WASN'T MORALLY WRONG BECAUSE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS WEREN'T SPOKEN. I THINK THEY HAD LACK OF FAITH THAT GOD WOULD BLESS THEM MIGHTILY AS HE PROMISED. WE SHOULD LEARN TO TRUST AND BELIEVE GOD WITH ALL HIS PROMISES.

[ccs]

Q4. What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith? Are they ethically and morally wrong? Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith? What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

What do you think about Abraham's and Sarah's ethics and faith?

I think they did have faith, but sometimes we as humans are between a rock and a hard place. It is not for us to judge, but for God whom we will all stand before on the judgment day.

Are they ethically and morally wrong?

Probably not ethically wrong, but yes morally wrong

Does the Scripture intend to show that their actions as a lack of faith?

No,

What lessons should we disciples learn from these stories?

That God is merciful and will fulfill His promise to us.

[Kim E.]

This was a clear cut case of situational ethics. Situation ethics poses a hypothetical problem which has no alternatives except ones that are morally unacceptable. The lesser of the evils is then justified in light of the circumstances.

Abraham was not wrong in considering the possibility that someone would appreciate his wife as beautiful and desire her for a wife. It was not even wrong to suppose that someone might even kill him to marry her. Abraham was wrong to assume that this would happen and that the only way to prevent it was to lie. Nowhere is the promise and the protection of God considered. Sinful deception is therefore begun before any real danger is ever experienced.

Situation ethics is wrong because it refuses to believe in the sovereignty of God. God