Q3. Prayer and Determinism

[Pastor Ralph]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

[RonS]

My answer to question #2 is also my answer to this question.

It is all about our training.

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"

Does effectual fervent prayer availeth much to God or to us?

I think it trains us to be more like Christ.

[Katzen]

If we feel that everything is predetermined, we won't pray as hard.

I think it's plain sill to think that our prayers make no difference. We're told repeatedly through the Bible to pray.

God would not tell us to pray, if it made no difference.

[class1fox]

How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayer make no difference to God's response?

By adopting the attitude "Que sera, sera, what will be, will be." With this attitude you can't pray a gutsy prayer like Moses.

A passive belief.

[ekila]

The Lord Jesus told us to pray in his name and what we ask for will come pass.

I am one that know that today's prayers are all answered but in his own time. In Gods perfect timing.

[pickledilly]

I don't know how to fully reconcile predestination and foreknowledge and human free will. The Scriptures make it clear that in all things, God has a will and a plan to accomplish it. It is also clear that He already knows the outcome of all things. And yet, within those parameters, He has given us the free will to choose whether or not to cooperate with His will. Only God could design such a thing and make it work!

I love Pastor Ralph's challenge that even though we don't understand all of this, we must act as if everything is NOT predetermined. Otherwise, it seems to me that prayer would truly just be a rather weak, empty, passionless exercise. If Moses' example of confident, bold, powerful prayer was "gutsy", then what is described in the question would perhaps be "gut-less" prayer. There would be no point to intercession, to which we're clearly called in Scripture.

[chenista]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

Determinism is placeing your own will and interest above that of the Father. Predestination means that we are all partakers of the inheritance if we meet the criteria required of salvation. Moses held God to his word because he knew the Word of God. He was in personal relationship with the Lord and he knew his place in both the will of God and within his place among the people as their leader. God imparted this to Moses through divine authority - and this gave Moses the authority to pray in such a way. He knew the will and intent of the Father, which was also his will - because he was in total surrender to the Lord.

[Helenmm]

Jesus has taught us to pray to "Our Father......", including, among other things our requests . He demonstratd many times in His own relatinship with God that He could ask and receive anything, including deliverance from the terrible death that He had come to undergo. He said that God would send legions of angels if He asked for it, and indeed they did come to minister to Him in the garden of Gethsemane. I presume here that He was not lying! In other words His prayers did receive their needed response from His Father. We too, by grace, are able to change the path of things with our prayers to God. Yes, there will be a wonderful Christian family, raptured or raised from the dead, because this is what God has ordained from the beginning. But I can pray for people, that they should be included in this family, and know that Father hears and honours my prayers that accord with His will that "not one should perish". Obviously there are those who will perish, and whose fate is already sealed in that manner, even though it was not God's will. Yet His overall will to have a family in Heaven will be achieved, and there is no changing that.

Therefore a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response is a belief in a lie. It is simply not the Truth. It is inconsistent with scripture that the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. The evidence is there many times over that God hears and answers prayers, eg when Peter was prayed out of prison.

Afterthought:

Perhaps God has made the world with a predetermined outcome, but He has also made us in His own image, so that we, like Him, have some individual and personal part in the determination of that ourcome. Our God is the most amazing! Please, somebody, comment on this thought! I'll look again at this forum tomorrow to see your comment.

pps:

God can use gutsy people, gutsy pray-ers.

[stsandy]

If all was predestined prayer would be limited to praise and worship.

The effectual ferverent prayer availeth much.

Gutsy prayer can change the heart of God.God's will willbe done and we cannot change that .But we can influence the way it is actioned when it is passionatley presented to him with all prayer and supplication,interceding on behalf of those concerned.

[sunilbernard]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

We are humans, limited in our understanding of the scriptures and the mind of God. In that position, we are not in a position to argue for or against, predestination, determinism, foreknowledge, freewill etc. But we should be concerned about the present position we are in. We should concern ourselves on the present object of our focus. If we are supposed to pray, let us pray fervently, forgetting about the attributes of the Lord God and forgetting about all the mind boggling abstract ideas. If we follow one school of thought, we will be distracted and our prayers will turn out to be spineless, abstract words instead of the kind of gutsy prayer Moses did.

If we believe that our prayers make no difference to God's response, then we are believing that God who has predetermined the actions of all, will do them whatsoever be the prayers we offer. We are resigned to God's chess game. The Hindus call it the 'Karma' or one's fate. Fortunately, we have a God who listens to His childrens' prayers and answers them, according to His promises made in the scriptures.

[lindaparadise]

How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

1st even if GOD knows the end we don't. without any of our actions, we're showing GOD that we don't care what happens. we have a choice and prayer is 1 of them. it's our way of asking for his help. it also acknowledges that we know we need his him. prayer shows GOD that we believe in him and that we care.

[Helen Spaulding]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

If we believe that everything is pre-determined, then we have no right--or power--to pray that God change something, whether it is for saving a life, or healing, or turning danger away. This understanding is not Biblical. God in Jesus told us to pray for our needs. If God has already decided what He will do, then it is useless to pray for Him to do otherwise, no matter how "gutsy"!

We know of many times--in the Bible as well as in daily life--when prayers were answered, and very definitely so! If we believe that prayer makes no difference in God's response, I'd call making such a prayer an act of stupidity. If it would do nothing, He would not have told us to pray.

Praise the Lord! we know that He loves us and hears us! And that presupposes that He wants our prayers and they will make a difference!

[TennLady01]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed?

If we believe that all things that are in the heart of God are set in stone the way he did the 10 commandments then we know that the prayers of Moses would not have made a difference. God is all knowing we understand that from 1John 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God. 1John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. His word is life and we see that we can talk to the Father by praying and he will do intercession for us. He would not let us pray and just toss it out he knows our hearts and our minds and he will answer our prayers when we ask in faith believing.

What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

That is a prayer that is calling Jesus, as well as God the Father, a liar. They said they hear our prayers and that they will answer them. So if you do not believe that they why pray. If we are but puppets here on this earth we would have no free will and Eve would not have listen to the servant. God has angels already that worship him day and night he gave us free will to have humans to live love and rejoice in him because of who he is not because that is all we can do. Even the angels fell so they had free will also things do change because of prayer. If not why would we bother to pray!

[Bob Jones]

Israel had tempted God by putting their belief in a golden calf and paying homage to it.

God

[sally7857]

We think that if God predestined it that it is set in stone and over with. Our prayers do make a difference to God. And people that do are praying whimpy prayers!!

[Sue]

Lesson 2 Q 3

How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed?

If we believe that God predestined everything then we would not believe that there is power in prayer, therefore making us pray wimpy prayers. If we have a wrong undrestanding of determinism and predestination then we believe that we cannot change God's mind and action, we would not have any bold prayers like Moses.

What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I would call our prayers passive and and unbelieving.

[maggiemuggins]

Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of prayer that Moses prayed?

First, I believe that God does not will sinful actions, but He does allow them to happen. Up to this point, I have used a passive "thy will be done". My prayers were not gutsy. If we don't understand determinism and predestination (to some point at least) we will be passive in prayer.

As a five year old Christian, I can see that I have a "lotta learnin" to do.

What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I call it unbelief in the ONE TRUE GOD. If our prayers can't make a difference, we may as well not bother. We are wasting our time, and God is not listening anyway.

Apologies to anyone who might take offense to my remarks, especially because you may not understand them the way I mean them. However, this is a forum for each one to say what they think, is it not?

[cpace]

A wrong understanding would cause us to believe it didn't matter what we prayed....God has predetermined everything, so why bother? If you believe your prayers make no difference, it's predestination. I also call it wrong. The Bible records many prayers that "changed" God's mind.

[farmboy]

This is a real tough one for me to grasp. God told us to pray and left us with some help on how to. I have to agree that prayer makes us more Christ like.

I don't begin to comprehend it all. The best I could explain to my kids was: our understanding of the things of God was like looking at a photograph, 2 demensional. God is 3 demensional or more.

I have rough thoughts in my mind but they are not yet clear, will take more time meditating on God's word.

I don't believe that God changes his mind. To me for God to change his mind would be to say "mistake" . God doesn't make mistakes. God is the same today as he was yesterday. We worship exactly the same God as Moses did, for there is only one God.

[Julie Ann]

How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

While I believe that God already knows everything, I also believe He does not expect us to just walk around in a "Ho Hum" attitude. We have been sent to tell the world about God. If we are not excited about him and don't seek his help, his will, how can we get others turned onto God. I think that God waits for our honest and earnest prayers before we see him act so that we are showing him our commitment to Him and his will. If we believe our prayers make no difference - then why do we even bother?

[Marilyn Rivington]

If I believe that God predetermines everything, then I also have to believe that my prayers are powerless. So why bother to pray? But Jesus told us to pray and gave instructions on how to pray (eg. "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Matthew 6:5-7) then Jesus gave the Disciples the Lord

[Marilyn Rivington]

I would like to share with you an excerpt from Jim W. Goll's book "Intercession," The Power and Passion to Shape History.

WHEN THE LORD CHANGED HIS MIND

One of the most amazing truths in the Bible is that our prayers can change God's mind. Yes, you heard me correctly! As intercessors, we have the privilege of shaping history before the throne of God. I want to illustrate this by looking at a prayer uttered by one of the greatest intercessors of them all-Moses. In his prayer recorded in Exodus 32:9-14, Moses' holy arguments with God prevailed, permitting God to act in mercy instead of judgment.

At the time of this conversation, Moses was still on the mountain where he had received the Ten Commandments. The Israelites down in the valley had just committed their great sin with the golden calf. God informed Moses of His intention to destroy the sinful people and to start over with Moses to build a nation. Let's examine Moses' prayer to see how he changed God's mind.

1. Moses argued from the history of God's redeeming acts. He told God that it would be out of character with His great acts of mercy (see Ex. 32:11) if, after leading the Israelites in triumph and glory out of Egypt, He destroyed them now. Moses interceded for God's redeeming acts, that they would align with His character.

2. Moses argued for the glory of God's name. In effect, Moses said to God, 'Don't give the Egyptians a reason to slander You because You failed to provide for Your people.' Moses was concerned about vindicating the holiness of God's great name in the earth (see Ex. 32:12).

3. Moses argued from God's faithfulness to His servants. He reminded God of the lives of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel (Jacob) and of the promises that He had previously given to them (see Ex. 32:13). Moses boldly quoted back to God the promise God had made and held God accountable to His own Word!

As a result of Moses' bold intercession, God changed His mind! That is truly awesome! God listened to the voice of a man and changed His mind! Why would God allow His mind to be changed by the voice of men? Because He has invited us to partner with Him to shape history.

As priests unto God through Jesus Christ we have the right and the privilege to 'stand in the gap' between God's righteous judgments that are due and mankind's need for mercy. We stand before God on the people's behalf, pleading on the basis of God's reputation in the earth, His faithfulness to His covenant Word that He has previously stated, and for the sake of His glory being revealed and established. This is the power and the passion of intercession at work.

[Elder9]

Giving into what we see. In daniel 3:28 God changed the Kings word (KJV). If we just give up "oh well" I guess it must be God's will for me to suffer etc. I'm of a different mind. I feel like my three Hebrew Brothers, if He delivers fine if not fine, I'm going to stand on His word till there's nothing left to stand on. Psalm 11:3 says if the foudation be destroyed what can the rigtheous do? If the fabric of our belief is removed what have we left, HIS WORD. If I've got to stand in the middle of space holding on to His written word I'll do it.

I call that kind of belief, fatal error and misappropriation of His word. If God knows what I have need of, yet still requires me to ask, then its my fault if I'm hungry. I believe that God is trying to get us out of "me and my four, and no more" kind of mindset. Steven asked God the same thing that Christ asked, Lord forgive them for they know not what they do. God said Nineveh had people that didn't know their right hand from their left. We've got to look out for the other people. Like someone looked out for us.

[sandieh]

Since only God knows the heart of an individual, only He knows what is really going on with a person. We can only pray God's will be done and that salvation come to all who would recieve it. I am still figuring out this predestintion thing. Seems some are really big on it and others aren't . John 3;16 Says And whosoever....we should pray just as boldly as Moses prayed!! Thats the only way to pray! We have got to be Believing God...in everything!!!!

[Lisa Rupert]

[/b]Q3. How can a wrong understanding of determinism and predestination keep us from the kind of gutsy prayer that Moses prayed? [/b]

God has both foreknown and determinined all things from all eternity. Everything is predetermined. The following scriptures should explain what I am saying:

[FONT=Courier]"In your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them" (Ps. 139:16). And Job says that man's "days are determined, and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" (Job 14:5)

Jeremiah, to whom God said, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations" (Jer. 1:5).Proverbs 16:1 affirms, "The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD." Predestination and determinism can keep us from the kind of prayer that Moses prayed if we believe that it doesn't matter weather we pray or not because it is already determined. But this is not true weather we want to believe this or not because it is determined that we will do exactly what we do. There are those who want to feel that they are in full control of their destinys but as scripture has shown us we are not. That God is in full control and that we should follow the scriptures. I believe that prayer lets God know that we want to worship, praise him and know him. We want to communicate with our Father, our creator. Not just praying for something, but keeping an openline of communications with God. To let him know he matters in our life.[/font]

What do you call a belief that our prayers make no difference to God's response?

I call this kind of belief one that is not in line with God's word. Remember as James tells us, "The effectual fervant prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Either we believe it and will act on it, or we are passive and unbelieving in prayer.

God knows the hearts of man.

I believe that our prayer does make a difference to God's response. It lets him know that we want him in our lives. We want him to be a part of our every existance. We acknowledge through prayer that no matter the outcome we know he has our best interest at heart and the conclusion will be a conclusion of love and not of evil. Good will prevail even though this is not always easy to see but belief helps you know that it will all work out in the end and God will prevail over all as he has promised in his word.