Q4. Justice and Charity

[Pastor Ralph]

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7) What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses? What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor – in our communities or in our families? In what ways is “tough love” important to help people? In what ways could it hurt them? 

 

[hanks]

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7)

What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses?

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor - in our communities or in our families?

In what ways is "tough love" important to help people?

In what ways could it hurt them? 

The people were turning their backs on the poor and needy – this they did by oppressing them, and by not feeding them. Also, they failed to provide them with shelter or if needed, clothing. Yet they were fasting and going around with a pious attitude. They didn't have a heart for God; if they did they would have a heart for their neighbours and fellow men as well, and want to help them and be a blessing to them. A legitimate excuse of not getting personally involved in helping the poor, may be that when we live in a high crime area, it is sometimes better not to go into these areas that are very risky. We must then rather give financial aid to organisations that are trained and experienced in offering help to the poor. I know that sometimes one has to apply “tough love”, but this has to be done with a lot of care and even more love. If this is not done they can carry on in their “comfort zone”. They sometimes need to be shaken into action. However, there might be personal reasons or causes beyond their control that have landed them in their situation, and they need nurturing and a lot of prayer and love. 

 

 

[hanks]

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7)

What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses?

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor - in our communities or in our families?

In what ways is "tough love" important to help people?

In what ways could it hurt them? 

The people were turning their backs on the poor and needy – this they did by oppressing them, and by not feeding them. Also, they failed to provide them with shelter or if needed, clothing. Yet they were fasting and going around with a pious attitude. They didn't have a heart for God; if they did they would have a heart for their neighbours and fellow men as well, and want to help them and be a blessing to them. A legitimate excuse of not getting personally involved in helping the poor, may be that when we live in a high crime area, it is sometimes better not to go into these areas that are very risky. We must then rather give financial aid to organisations that are trained and experienced in offering help to the poor. I know that sometimes one has to apply “tough love”, but this has to be done with a lot of care and even more love. If this is not done they can carry on in their “comfort zone”. They sometimes need to be shaken into action. However, there might be personal reasons or causes beyond their control that have landed them in their situation, and they need nurturing and a lot of prayer and love. 

 

 

[RD35]

What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses?  He condemns the people of being unjust towards their workers and exploiting them, and their attitude towards the poor and the homeless.

 

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor -- in our communities or in our families? We give the excuse that it is the governments or church job to take care of the poor and the needy.  Sometimes we blame on them that begging is a sin and only a scan to avoid working (there may be justifiable situations though !), sometimes we just wait for someone else to come and help them

[antonate]

The injustice God condemns in these verses is not caring for the hungry, the homeless , the naked without clothes and members of once own family.

we excuse ourselves thinking they are deprived sector of the community because they are sinful people. Also the we have a fear that they may deceive us by showing their weaknesses and thus take advantage of our goodness. Another excuse can be because of our hard heartedness towards these people because of lack of love in our hearts.

[Squirt]

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7) What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses?

    He condemned the Israelites for going through the motions of observing the Law without being changed.  They fasted, but it didn’t change their hearts; they did not stop oppressing those who were weaker, those who were indentured to them.
    He condemned them also for not providing the necessities of life to those who were unable to provide for themselves.  We pray each day “give us this day our daily bread,” by which we mean “provide for us today those things which we need to live.”  He challenges them, asking
them aren’t you supposed to feed the hungry and provide shelter to the poor wanderer, clothe the naked, and provide for your own flesh and blood?  Are you not your brother’s keeper?

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor -- in our communities or in our families?

    Someone else is supposed to be helping them–there are government programs
    If they really needed help they wouldn’t be wearing $100 shoes
    I’m not going to give money to someone who smokes.
    There’s a food bank down the street.
    Goodwill has clothing for just a few dollars.
        Most of those folks you see out there are just out to get something for nothing.
    I should give, I know, but things are a little tight...

    The shame of excuses is that we are turning our backs on the people who most need us at a time when they can’t help themselves.  The Lord’s command is to love others as ourselves

In what ways is "tough love" important to help people?

    When the Lord allows trials in our lives, the intent is to draw us closer to Him.  Not only does it refine us, but it gives us both a witness and sympathy for others suffering similar things.    
    When Israel and Judah continued to sin against God, He removed His protection from them and allowed their enemies to be victorious over them.  He “sent” them into bondage to other nations until they humbled themselves and called on Him with all their hearts.  When they recognized that they could do nothing on their own and that they needed God, then He was prepared to again work on their behalf to bring them back home and show them His love.  His love isn’t changeable; He loved them always, but it was a necessary lesson for them to learn.  
    
In what ways could it hurt them?
    
    Trials are not fun events--loss, sickness, want, sorrow, isolation, bondage.  These are things that hurt.  In the case of the exiles we’re studying now, only a remnant returned.  Many of those died who were taken into Assyria and later those exiled to Babylon.  
    Tough love can also harden hearts even more in those who do not, or will not, see what is best for them.
 

[Squirt]

Message from Pastor Ralph today regarding the problem receiving the lesson emails:

 

I have been having serious problems with my e-mail server and since Monday,
November 4, none of the e-mails have gotten out. I am truly sorry and am
working hard to remedy this situation.

Until then you may find links to the lessons you're missing at:

http://www.jesuswalk...aiah/isaiah.htm

Please let those on the forum know about the situation. Thanks.

May God richly bless you

Yours in Christ's service,
Pastor Ralph

[Lion of Grace]

These verses called on the Israelite's and us today to fight injustice towards the poor and needy and downtrodden. We are to free the oppressed, act justly, love mercy and most important walk humbly. We are to treat people fairly and justly and have mercy on those who have less than we do. We are to not walk arrogantly towards those who "have not" as so often is with those who have a lot. We all, even those with a little, have opportunity to give to those less fortunate than us. Even giving your last $10 or $20 to someone who has nothing is a blessing.

 

Some excuses we have for not giving and being generous to the poor come as a result of our judging another and their lifestyle often out of our own missed perceptions. We usually don't have the whole story or situation, yet we cast our judgement on someone that needs help. We rationalize that because they don't have much, they must be lazy and don't work hard or don't have a drive for success. We don't think they "deserve" a bail out. Thank Heavens Jesus didn't look at US that way! Sometimes, it's easier to leave the care in the hands of well known charities or even worse, the government. The most ludicrous example I ever saw though was when a charitable organization I once volunteered at refused a woman (with children) who worked full time at a minimum wage job, any food or clothing because she had an alcoholic husband who didn't work but "should" be working to support his family. After she left devastated, I heard them arrogantly picking her choice of husband apart, saying she got what she deserved. I couldn't stay there after that! It broke my heart.

 

Tough love helps some people because it helps them to realize life isn't about free hand outs for life or that any kind of behavior is acceptable. But tough love can be harmful too if a relationship has not been established and there isn't trust and love between the two parties. Tough love meted out by just anybody can seem harsh and judgmental and sorry to say often is. 

[Delivered]

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7) What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses? God does not look at our religious acts as a sweet aroma if we are not caring for those who are in need and instead turn our cheek the other way from the injustice we see around us.

 

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor -- in our communities or in our families? We do not seem to have this problem in our church or community.

 

In what ways is "tough love" important to help people? In what ways could it hurt them? Tough love is one that will offer help that will be beneficial to the recipient in the long run, a temporary fix could in the long run only hurt them, while at the same time give to us that pat on the back, the "tough love" God is looking for, is love that truly cares.

 

 

 

[wjcargile]

1. Isaiah condemns: The unjust treatment of the poor.

2. We use excuses of not being generous to the poor:

-They can work if they want too.

-They are just lazy.

-That is why we have welfare.

-They are always looking for a handout.

3. In what way is "tough love" important to people?

-when we are down and out, it teaches us to be humble and to appreciate in some cases what we have taken for granted.

-lwarn to give thanks to God.

4. In what way can it hurt them?

-if they continue to disobey God's commands, He will not hear their cry for help.

[Jen]

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7) What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses? What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor -- in our communities or in our families? In what ways is "tough love" important to help people? In what ways could it hurt them? 

 

Oh dear!  What does James say?  Faith without works is dead.  If we are content because all is well with us and ignore our hurting neighbor we are hypocrites.  Generosity comes in different forms.  Some have money, some skills, some time, some kind words.  Use what you have and can.

Some people need tough love, some just need love.

 

God Bless!

Jen

Romans 15:13

[Guitar Jim]

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7) What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses?

 

Letting the poor and needy go hungry, exploiting employees, not helping the homeless.

 

 

 

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor – in our communities or in our families?

 

I suppose some would say they just can't afford it. Some would say they made their bed, they have to lie in it. There are lots of rationalizations people use to absolve themselves of their social responsibility. I've heard people blame the poor for being poor. Then there are whole countries that beglect their own poor. The one's whose religion teaches reincarnation for starters. If you're well off and born into privelege you must have been a good person in your previous life. If you're scraping a living off the rubbish tip you must have been a bad person in your previous life. They leave the poor to their own devices because they reckon they're just getting what they deserve. Then it's up to Christian missionaries to pick up the slack, like Mother Theresa.

 

 

 

In what ways is “tough love” important to help people?

 

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish for himself and you've enabled him to feed himself for many days. It's easier to give a man a fish than to take the time to teach him and help him. That sort of tough live is hard on the lover as well as the lovee (is that a word?) Some people need to be tough loved otherwise they just keep on holding out their hands for . . . handouts.

 

 

 

In what ways could it hurt them? 

 

Sometimes tough love can be too tough. We have to be sensitive to how the recipient of our tough love is responding. It never hurts to give someone a hug when they need it.

 

[angelbaby]

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7) What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses?

 

    We are Self centred rather thatn God centred.

    We make a show o pious religious observance but do not serve the poor ,show mercy or act justly.

    We tend to forget Christs commands to care for the sick, hungry, naked, prisoners, oppress workers by making them overwork

    and some exploit girls...some employ aliens so that they will not cause trouble by forming unions ..others employ or less thatn a day so that they do not have to pay medical and other benefits...all methods to oppress the poor.

   We fast but actually do not obey Gods commands! . 

 

 

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor -- in our communities or in our families?

 

  We ffeel that they are exploit us and taking undue advantage of our kindness, we feel they lie and project themselves as downtrodden but actually they are not in bad circumstances...many times we feel that their needs are fewer but they wish to compete with higher standards and live above their capabilities..

 

   As regards to giving charity to widows and old age homes and orphanages we use the excuse that people misappropriate the funds and so unless we give directly we cannot be sure where the money is going ....

 

In what ways is "tough love" important to help people? In what ways could it hurt them? 

 

Tough love is helpful to people but they may feel infradig to accept help from you as it doesnt befit their status to take help..so they get hurt by our overshow of money.

 

People want more than we can spare sometimes and though we want to help their demands are beyond our capability and they feel hurt

 

Tough love can be given if the person realises his needs and is able to digest taking help and doesn't have ego  

[humblejon]

Those who oppress others with strict rules and poor working conditions, who do not feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, provide clothing for the needy, or take care of their,own extended families. We often think we cannot be scammed by those who can work but only much money off us, whether a community or family member.

I heard one believer, who was an addict,tell us that when his family practiced "tough love" on him, it left only deep emotional pain and scars; imagine if this was God's preferred method in dealing with us as sinners. Would want Him to turn His back on us?

[IvoryEagle]

What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses? Hypocrisy, showmanship, and not sharing with the fellow man.

 

 

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor -- in our communities or in our families? We say they should pull themselves up by their own bootstrap, they only want money to buy drugs, etc.

 

 

In what ways is "tough love" important to help people?   Teach them to try through accountability.

 

 

 

In what ways could it hurt them?  Perhaps they have no foundation to try and need a leg up.

 

[JanMary]

On 8/2/2013 at 8:39 AM, Pastor Ralph said:

 

 

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7) What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses?

Bonds of wickedness, bands of the yoke, oppression, enslavement of any kind, including the hungry and homeless, the poor, those without proper clothing...or the basic necessities of life.

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor – in our communities or in our families?

I've heard all of these: "We'll always have the poor with us". "They are lazy and need to work". "Someone else will take care of them." "That's what welfare is for."  "It will cripple them so they'll never want to provide for themselves."

In what ways is “tough love” important to help people?

Too much care can cripple the one in need, especially if they come to rely on others to take care of them. There needs to be wisdom and limits and boundaries on how much and how long care is given, so the individual can regain self respect and to begin to function in society by participating and producing.

In what ways could it hurt them?

Co-dependent giving to make ourselves feel better may be the wrong thing to do at the wrong time and cause one to become dependent on us rather than being motivated to seek God about what they can be doing to move into taking care of themselves, and hopefully to be in a position down the road to help some one else..."Paying it forward".

[WinstonY]

Question 10.4

 

Oh My!  Where has the Christian church been the last 1700 years!  Again here in these verses of Isaiah 6 to 8 Yahweh screams out his purpose.  Yahweh is not gentle here. We see signs of the Jesus who drove the money changers from the temple.  God, though Isaiah, is very clear in his disapproval of those who do not loose the bonds of injustice and let the oppressed go free.  Today’s world has vast amounts of injustice.  Corporations and their shareholders in vast amounts of money on the backs of underpaid workers.  We see in the notes a call to do away with the practices of sweat shops, exploiting of people, not paying a living wage.  These practices and others like them are deplorable to the Lord Yahweh.  They were an abomination to Yahweh in the sixth century B.C. and are still detestable before our God today.

 

On the other hand when we loose the bonds of injustice, share our bread with the hungry, bring the homeless, poor into our houses, clothe the naked.

 

Then your light to the nation will shine forth to the nations and healing will come quickly and Yahweh our Lord and Savior, our vindication will go before us and bring up the rear guard.

 

Our responsibility is clear and is also clearly spelt out to us by Jesus of Nazareth in Matthew 25:39-46.  In Mark 12:30-31 we are told to love our neighbors as ourselves.  It seems quite clear and evident what our mission and goal in life should be and should be somewhat concerned about the consequences.

 

In Isaiah’s time there seemed to be a great disconnect between the rebellion of the people against Yahweh’s way of humility and love for neighbor and to their religious ceremonies.  In their lives they were hoarding wealth and did not practice righteousness but in their religious ceremonies they sought to know God’s ways .  God hated that disconnect in Isaiah’s time and he still hates the same disconnect now.  The Lord Yahweh still holds out to us the poor and we are to respond positively towards the poor.

 

The main rationalization one sees is that the poor are too lazy to work and beg instead. A second reason is that we are ‘too poor’ to give to the poor.  We do not realize the great gap between the middle class in North America and Europe and the poor of the world - both here and in the under developed countries.

 

I do not like the term ‘tough love’ but perhaps that is what God did to the people of Israel when he allowed them to go in to exile in Babylon.

 

winstony

[Old Jerry]

The injustice that Isaiah condemned is making slaves out of those who are in need and exploiting those in need. The excuses  that we  use today is to say that the beggar is  just somebody that is taking advantage of you when you donate to them when in fact that is the  way they chose to live. Or we could say that the government is going to take care of them.

In some ways that “tough love” could be important to them is that it would make the go out and find a job but it could also hurt them by depriving them of the needs that they might have.

[RebeccaL]

On 8/2/2013 at 4:39 PM, Pastor Ralph said:

Q4. (Isaiah 58:6-7) What kinds of injustice does Isaiah condemn in these verses? Exploiting workers and turning a blind eye to the oppressed and the poor
 

What excuses do we use to rationalize not being generous to the poor – in our communities or in our families? Some think it’s the government’s job, some the Church, to care for the poor. Sometimes we worry giving help to the poor enables the poor to take advantage of the givers, or that it’s their scam to avoid working. 

 

In what ways is “tough love” important to help people? In what ways could it hurt them? “Tough love” can help people by showing them how to care for themselves rather than relying on others all the time, but it can also be harmful if there isn’t plenty of compassion behind the toughness.

 

 

[Krissi]

Exploitation of people through lies and propaganda, reducing their opportunities for self-betterment by destroying their job sectors, encouraging them to engage in self-destructive and immoral behaviour, giving them a substandard and limiting education, making them fight in brutal and unnecessary wars to protect the economic privileges or ideology of elitists,  forcing them to live in high density cities where they cannot grow food or provide for themselves ... these are ways that the poor are deprived both physically and spiritually. These are morally repugnant, yet common things, governments are doing to people today. To a much lesser degree, powerful elitists in NGOs and corporations, even without the coercive power of the state backing them, also treat people this way.

We should, and could, give away what we have to others. It's the only way we can protect ourselves from the growing threat of governments and powerful organizations. People who hoard or try to preserve their own privileges are the problem, not the solution. 

It hurts when we give to others, even within our families, and then are manipulated and disrespected for our generosity, but we are still commanded to give as well as to expect, in return, nothing except our daily minimal provision and clothing. This is a difficult aspiration particularly for Westerners accustomed to high living standards. The "tough love" can be directed toward ourselves, then, and not only toward those who use us to get our money.

I do think, in retrospect, that giving without strings can be wrong, at times, and could result in more harm to everyone involved.

Selflessness can morph into pain.

[crissy464]

not caring for the hungry, the homeless , the naked without clothes and members of once own family.

I don’t have time, i don’t have the resources

Tough love could make someone relize that they need help and will try to get help for themselves.
If you can’t try to do something for yourselves, why should others help you.

Deprive them of things they need