Krissi

This is fascinating. I've always avoided end-time talk because it seemed like such ridiculous speculation. This is more clear. When Christ comes again -- the date and number of His coming isn't clear -- there will be no time for preparation or even waiting. It will be instantaneous. Those already dead will have received their resurrection bodies already; those alive will be instantly given their new bodies. Angels are tasked with locating alive believers at the time of the final trumpet call (before?) Christ comes. I'm grateful that this is painless. We simply die and receive our new bodies, or if we die before Christ comes, we'll receive our new bodies in due time. There's no mention of suffering or begging. The decision has been made and God executes it quickly. I'm not afraid to die like this. Those who die before He comes have had much more difficult time dying, unless it's quick as in an accident. I'm watching my father die now, mostly of old age. He is almost blind, unable to write, and can barely move from place to place -- I can recall him as a vital man. This is death for most of us, and it's far, far more painful than the instant death of the resurrection day.

The manner in which Pastor Ralph paralleled the 22nd Psalm and various other writings in scripture clearly shows similarities in word and phrase between them. I do not know if Jesus was aware that the psalm referred to Himself. My hunch is that He had imbibed so much scripture that it's words and phrases naturally tumbled out of his mouth; he didn't have to "memorize" or recall, that is. I find it interesting that at the point of death, Jesus was thirsty. This seems like He's asking for the Holy Spirit to return to Him, that he knew His horrible execution was almost complete and He was eager to return to heaven ... thirsting for God. I'm also not sure David had any idea that the words he was writing prefigured Christ. I rather doubt he was aware of anything but his own pain and suffering. Yet, the same Spirit that is Christ was in David as he penned these words, thus the continuity between earlier and later scriptures.

Jesus subordinated himself to God, willingly, when He came to earth as a man and then took the sins of the world on his shoulders at the crucifixion. After he went back to the father, after the three days leading up to his resurrection, he became an equal partner in trinity, again. These are mysterious ideas that are too big for me to comprehend. Somehow, He is equal but was man, for awhile. Somehow the three are one. Somehow Jesus is both man and God, or was man and is God. Ideas this big have to be accepted not pondered.

I'm going through a terrible trial right now. For the first time in my Christian life, I "feel" Christ's words on the cross as well as the psalmists words in this section of the 22nd Psalm. For the first time, I feel I'm sharing in the suffering of Christ. Christ was forsaken. God stepped away during His crucifixion and did not comfort Him. It makes sense that Jesus used the word "forsaken" as he died. God did not answer his plea until after his death and reunification. I feel this, too. God seems so far from me. So very far. He is silent as I groan. I cannot hear His voice. I cannot sleep and can barely eat. I have cried -- am crying now -- tears which seem ignored. Forsaken is personal. Not abstract. It's not something only Jesus experienced on the cross, such a long time ago, but is here, now and deep. Yet Jesus says he will never forsake or leave me. Why do I FEEL abandoned and vulnerable, if He's here with me? Where is your comfort, Lord Jesus? Your peace? Are you in and with me as You promise? You see my tears, hear my groans -- please answer my prayers for deliverance. I need you Lord. Lord Jesus, Jesus, Jesus ... please save me.

Jesus (the Christ and Messiah) was murdered. His death covered our sins. His body was buried for three days and then, out of death, he came to life again.

Jewish teachings and lore is full of examples of tricky wordplays and convoluted reasoning. The Pharisees were masters of this but Jesus one-upped them with his question. He asked if the son of David could be over David, which in the Jewish mind was impossible. But there it was in the text … a fact that defied explanation. Jesus used this text to stretch the minds of listeners to include the idea that the “the Lord said to my Lord” or the Messiah could be more than human but divine. How else could the Messiah be both greater than David and his son? This Messiah will be more powerful than all other leaders – he sits in the honourable spot at the right hand of God. The Jews also had an image of the Messiah as a political figure who will come to vanquish their foes and put them at the top of the world power elite. So, in their collective mind, the Messiah is a king or political leader. -- But He is also described as a spiritual leader, a priest. The mention of Melchizedek is fascinating in this context. Melchizedek was the righteous king over Salem which was near Jerusalem. Melchizedek appeared to Abraham and then was a king mentioned by David. In the book of Hebrews, Melchizedek seems not to be subject to death, without parents and a forever priest. The significance is that the Messiah merges the priestliness of Melchizedek with the idea of a warrior king. -- Peace isn't usually achieved peacefully. An element of coercion exists even in peaceful countries. Jesus/Messiah has to crush evil before conquering it. He has to crush the rulers and heap up the dead in his judgment against nations that have rejected Christ and thus spawned evil societies. Prince comes before peace.

Our salvation is NOT contingent on anything we do or not do after we are saved -- once saved, always saved. But our sanctification is utterly dependent on our obedience, and the slow growth in faith that subsequently happens. RC Sproul gives the reformed idea of the perseverance of the saints here: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/tulip-and-reformed-theology-perseverance-saints It's worth a read. Here, Sproul says that the word perseverance should be replaced by the word preservation because God is the acting, not us. God preserves us and our faith. Horrible sins, such as done by David and Bathsheba, do NOT sever us from God because God Himself preserves our faith.

My congregation, an Anglican spin-off, is so tightly regulated by liturgy and ritual that I can’t imagine anyone speaking up or doing anything “untoward.” We could use more spontaneity. Much more. Though the congregation is composed of genuine believers (and a handful of Sunday Christians), the minister represses any spontaneous expression of faith. The entire worship service is under his control, or at least controlled. Mid-week Bible studies led by laymen are more open yet spiritual gifts are not exercised. There are no small groups. One extreme manifestation of “fitting and orderly” is a worship service that is choreographed and ritualized. I had expected most people on this forum to come from more "spiritually libertarian" congregations, as did Paul, but after reading through the comments, this is not the case.

Many of us belong to churches which are much larger than the small groups Paul probably had had in mind, about 20 people meeting in someone’s home. It must have been easier for worshippers to behave in an orderly fashion if they knew each other and could see what was going on in the group as a whole. Something must have been utterly chaotic for Paul to stress order in a small group! The only difference between Paul’s instructions to prophets and tongues-speakers is that the tongues-speakers were not permitted to speak without an interpreter (how did they know that someone would interpret what they were saying?) When worshipping, both of these gifts were restricted to two or three times per service. How did they spend the rest of the time? Prayer? Song? Communion? Witnessing? Personal testimony? Only tongues and prophecy were restricted but not healing, for example, which could happen at any time. The principle here is one of order. It’s a bit like any group meeting in which orderly rules must be set down; much like Robert’s Rules of order work in parliamentary meetings. I attend a liturgical church in which order is taken to the extreme – there is no room for spontaneity in the service.

I have difficulty truly believing God is loving and faithful … toward me. I can see, however, His love and faithfulness to the Israelites/Jews – their apostacy and restoration cycle was endless because God kept reaching out and pulling them back toward Him. What I am struggling to do is believe that he loves me too. The Spirit needs to drill these two sentences into my mind as I cannot truly believe them on my own: -- God loves me. -- I can trust Him The terms used in the NT are the same as those in the OT. Note that it is GOD’s love for us and OUR trust in Him. Great is His love toward us. His faithfulness (toward us) never ends. Praise the Lord.

To me, what stands out is God's nearness. He hears me when I call to Him. I'm not screaming into the void but into His open ear. When I call "in truth" -- which I take to mean what I truly think and feel -- He hears my broken words through the sobs. I am very comforted by the thought that God hears my prayers. Furthermore, when I call out to Him for help, He hears my cry and saves me. He answers my prayers. I am clinging to this truth right now. Save me, Lord. Hear my cry and save me!! -- It is quite difficult to sincerely praise God when we're devastated and deeply suffering, yet Pastor Ralph says, in so many words, that we must do it anyway. The idea is as we praise, or attempt to praise, we are able to get past ourselves and think of God. I am doing this now. I am reading these psalms aloud with my hands up, begging Him to be true to this psalm, not in objective reality, but in my wee life, right now.

When I bow my head and silently pray in church, I am not edifying or building up the believers next to me, but am communing with God Himself, one-on-one. The fact that others may also be praying to God at the same time matters not to me -- my prayers are for and to Him. If I spoke in tongues in church, which I do not, I would think there could be a silent version of such speech. That, too, would be between me and God. When Quakers have long periods of silence during their services, those silences include the thoughts and prayers of believers toward God and do not involve in any manner, the thoughts and prayers of others. Most of the Christian life is NOT communal. Salvation is between me and God. When I choose to submit to Him in faith, no one else needs be involved. Sanctification is also between me and God. Worship must be categorically different, then. It is only communal. It seems that Paul is saying that anything we do alone, in privacy, is not something we should do in church, that church should be reserved for the sorts of things that all participate in. Thus, tongues with interpretation or prophetic utterances are appropriate because the entire group participates and understands what God is saying. Paul, interestingly, goes outside of the church to justify the idea that the only things that should go on in church are for people in the church. He says that the things we do should be understood by outsiders to the faith -- thus, eliminating tongues but not prophecy. I would think that secularists who hear prophecy would think "we are out of our minds" as the NIV sorta puts it, so I'm not sure why prophecy is public and good for unbelievers to hear while tongues are either private or interpreted and bad for unbelievers to hear. I'm confused, as usual.

I do not think that the gifts of the Spirit are for building up the church … exclusively. Nor do I think that natural gifts are logically connected to spiritual gifts. A gift can build up the body of Christ as well as be a way to praise and glorify God alone or, maybe, in a group of two. The spiritual gift of prophecy is one of the least debated gifts. It appears to be on everyone’s list because prophecy is clearly supernatural and well-described in both the OT and NT. By definition, prophecy has to have a recipient. But is there self-prophesying? Also, can prophecy be for one other person, done one-on-one? Perhaps when God reveals what a person will or should do, this is a form of prophecy. It is foretelling, no? Does everything that has to do with the future constitute a form of prophecy? I have heard people who speak in tongues get a “word from God” for someone else. God uses person A to speak in tongues, interpreted by person B and intended for person C, rather than just go directly to person C with His message. So, in this circumstance, there is no final difference between prophecy and tongues. Paul wrote: “Pursue love and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophecy.” This seems to be a command. If we’re to pursue and desire this particular gift, it implies that God may be willing to give us this gift, that the bestowal of gifts has something to do with our willingness to exercise them and is not always something that happens to us unexpectedly. --- I have seen charismatic excess and the body of Christ being mocked by outsiders for having false or misguided gifts. Since prophecy is one of the gifts least understood by outsiders, it seems that events in which a prophecy could be given should be closed to those outside the church -- no prophecy during a "seeker service," for example. But more often I see the opposite: dead and dying churches that never have had the expression of spiritual gifts. I'm sorry that this was such a disjointed answer. Just thinking aloud...

I love Rosesam's answer above. As we read through the psalms, we take from them what we need at a particular time in our lives. Right now, I need God's love and deliverance, so as I read the psalm, that's what is quickened to me. I find God's love incomprehensible. The fact that He forgives all of my doubts, meandering mind, inability to feel His love or give love in turn ... so much, makes me want to drop to my knees in gratefulness. The symbolism of the exodus, it's story, runs deep in all of us, Jews and Christians alike. God plucked a group of Israelites out of abject poverty and slavery ... He saved and delivered them. They would have remained Israelites if they had stayed in Egypt, so God was not saving their identity, but their persons. He cared for those particular people at that time. His compassion was glorious to those who received it, to those who ran through the walls of the Red Sea waters, to those he saved and rescued. "The Lord's love is with those who fear Him." I fear Him. But in the back of my mind, I wonder how God loved the Israelites who feared Him, kept their rituals and laws intact, and were not rescued, the generations of Israelites before the great exodus. He must have had some compensatory way of showing love. It says that the enslaved Israelites grew stronger when the tasks given to them became more onerous. God strengthened them. He gave fecundity in poverty. They may not have been rescued, but they were loved in some sense. --- This is what strikes me about this passage: The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. This is the God we worship. Compassionate. Gracious. Slow to anger. Exceedingly loving and faithful. Forgiving.

I felt led to listen to Tony Evans on "How to Overcome Spiritual Warfare with the Armor of God."

1. God is King because He created everything under Him. We are His vassals. 2. The vassal who is able to approach the King is morally pure and undefiled from idol worship. That vassal will be blessed by God as well as vindicated. 3. This long passage about God's glory metaphorically compares our approach to God with the approach of a king to a city. As a king is revered and respected, he is admitted to the city as the King of Glory. 4. I'm not sure this comment is as close to the text as Pastor Ralph would like, but I was quickened to the statement that His loyal followers would be blessed and that the definition of blessing in this lesson is being "endued with power for success, prosperity, fecundity and longevity." I feel as I am a loyal follower of God -- not perfect but loyal -- and hope to be blessed in this manner (sans fecundity!)

Most Christian seem to have an event which they recall as "special," a time when God clearly supernaturally intervened. They can recall that event when God seems distant -- it is a comfort to know that God once delivered and can deliver again. A wadi represents instant deliverance; sowing and reaping represent delayed deliverance. I desperately need a wadi in my life right now, quick even instantaneous deliverance from a situation that will harm me.

Pastor Ralph used the term “mirror” in part of his description of “ascribe.” I like this. I imagine holding a mirror to God in such a way that the reflection shines on people who don’t know Him. Scribe is a Jewish teacher. We tend to think of scribe as a writer, but it’s really a teacher of religious law. To put the “a” in front of it is a way of emphasizing the word as in a-wake or a-rise. So David, here, is telling us to TEACH -- really teach … to teach large crowds with riveting content. We are to broadcast loudly and emphatically that God is glory and God is strength. Evangelism is not supposed to be subtle, but brazen and bold. TEACH people about God’s strength. Give Him the glory! Lord, You reign! You reign over all of us, even the evildoers. You are more powerful than the persecution that’s happening to us. Jesus … Jesus … Jesus … You are over this. You are more powerful than suffering and persecutors. You are GOD. When I don’t think of God as in charge and all powerful, my faith quickly falters. I begin to look at my own suffering and trials and not to Him. But “the Lord is near.” I am reminded to “be anxious for nothing but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let my requests be made known to God. And the peace of God which surpasses all comprehension Shall guard my heart and my mind in Christ Jesus.” Phil 4 (Sometimes, in order to feel that God is really talking to me, I change the pronouns.) When my eyes are on Jesus and not on myself, which is difficult in the midst of a frightening trial, my stomach unknots and the nausea lessens. My attitude is less fearful and I feel more secure. To live in a universe in which God reigns and to know that He is watching over everything, carefully and lovingly, makes trials and sufferings easier to bear. I can praise Him because I know that if I die, I’ll be with Him and that He is controlling whatever happens to me before my death. Though I’m struggling to believe that He wants the best for me in this trial and even struggling to believe that He’ll intervene on my behalf, I know God is good and all-powerful. Yes, God is good. In Joel it says God “is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love and RELENTS FROM SENDING CALAMITY.” Praise God!! He may relent from sending calamity! To worship Him in a way that is “fitting” is to acknowledge His sovereignty and our own powerlessness; His righteousness and our own sinfulness. To worship Him in a fitting manner puts us in “right relationship” to Him, which is both dirt under His feet and His children. We are His children and He is our Father. Isn't that amazing?

Pastor Ralph mentioned at the end of this section the word, "Balance." I think that's the key to love. Love is like a foundation on which faith and hope rest. When we love, we put the gifts into perspective. Gifts balance themselves when we love.

(When I first started doing these biblical studies, I rarely read the responses. Now, however, I read them carefully. There's a sense of fellowship with you(!) that I feel in spite of the years that have passed and anonymity. God transcends space and time. He binds long-dead Christians to future ones in one body. Thank you for your responses. They are appreciated.) It is difficult to praise God because, as so many of you wrote, we're focused on ourselves. Our own problems seem overwhelming, pointless and critical. God seems to have turned his face from us. We feel alone, abandoned and unloved. "Where is that powerful God who vindicates and protect us," we wonder. "How could a loving God let this happen?" I found it interesting that so many of you wrote that the act of praise gave you an emotional/spiritual lift. Without saying it, you all seem to believe that this lift goes beyond the psychological, that it's not just something you talk yourself into, or submit to, but God Himself entering into you in greater measure. I am trying to praise right now. Trying to focus my mind on Him. Praise should be an act of will, something I know I should do, want to do and need to do ... but my mind too-often wanders back to these dire circumstances. "LORD, HELP ME PRAISE YOU!! Help me "count it all joy." Please make these circumstances only last "for a little while" yet let me grow closer to You through them. You say that it is Your will that I rejoice and pray without ceasing; I want to do this. I want to give you genuine praise. Help me praise you now, Lord. Amen."

I don't know when the perfect comes. This stumps me and is beyond what my mind can handle. If pressed to choose, I'd agree with the third point in Pastor Ralph's excursus, which is that the perfect comes with the coming of Jesus -- the second coming, that is. It's logical to believe that Christ's perfection will be fully manifested when He is fully manifested. Having said this, logic isn't proof or of much importance to God: He is three-in-one, Christ was born of a virgin, Christ has a dual nature, etc. (This begs the question of how He could have been partially manifested when on earth during His life here. Perhaps that's the meaning of the child v adult thinking that Paul writes -- an analogy.) The gifts have been left here for us to use until He comes back. They're a stop-gap measure to help us to the time when Christ comes again -- temporarily bestowed. We won't need them in heaven.

I am praying. (I'm currently going through the darkest period of my life. I'm trying to claim the peace of God but that peace often slips away. We have all been here, at the bottom, not knowing what will happen, afraid and very alone. And strangely, God seems most silent when we are most suffering. He pulls away when we need Him the most.) "He is my refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble, therefore I will not fear..." 46. My prayer: Praise you Lord! You are my refuge so I can hide in You. I may not feel hidden but in faith I believe I'm safe. You are in me. Within me. Deep within me. Because You are sovereign, the people who are persecuting me cannot hurt me more than You permit. You will NOT let me be tested beyond what I can endure. Yet, Lord, I feel as if I'm at the limit. I don't know how much longer I can go on. I crave death. I want the suffering to end. You are here. In me. Around me. You are not taking me home. Lord, take pity on me. Notice my suffering. Watch me vomit out of fear and see my hands shake. Help me conquer the fear, Lord. Show me how to NOT fear. Lord, I cannot stop the fear by myself. I need you to do this for me. I'm becoming ill over this trial, Lord, this horrible persecution -- I need you to comfort me. You promise to never leave me. You promise to be continually with me, to not desert or forsake me. You promise that the Holy Spirit will remain inside of me ... my helper. You promise to give me YOUR strength, which is infinite. "You are my servant ... I have chosen you and not rejected you. DO NOT FEAR for I am with you. DO NOT anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you. Surely, I will help you." Isa 41 Lord, with all my flagging strength and the faith of a mustard seed, I beg You to make this a promise for me, right now. I beg to be Your servant. To be chosen and not rejected. I need You to show me and help me not to fear, to really understand how it is that You're with me. Lord, I confess that I've never been so anxious and afraid as I am now. My faith isn't strong enough to have peace. Strengthen me, Lord. Enlarge my faith. Prove to me that You are God. MY GOD. I don't want my prayers to be self-talk. I want you to listen, dear Lord. I know You are God. I know You are all-powerful and mighty. I know that nothing happens outside of Your will. I know You are good. I am trying to believe You love me and only want what is best for me. I praise You and thank You, with the faith I still have, for how You will get me through this to the other side. Help me Jesus. I need You now. Right now. Lord!!! I cannot help but to fear and be anxious. I cannot control this. I need Your help. SURELY YOU WILL HELP ME. For certain, You will help me. Help me believe Your promises. Forgive my unbelief. As I do the rest of my morning devotions, I ask that You not only speak to me Your words of comfort and hope, but that You end the fear within me and take care of this situation. Oh, Lord, please end this. I pray for victory. To be exonerated. For I am innocent. Amen.

I've lived near oceans, rivers and streams and have found streams to be most peaceful and comforting. The constant, gentle babble of water over rocks ... quite lovely, really. I think of Elijah sitting by Cherith, a small brook that sustained him for years as he waited for God's next directive. He listened to that babbling brook night and day. That must have been a comfort. Peace isn't easy in times of great suffering, pain and mental turbulence. When life is horrible, being still is 'nigh impossible. Yet God commands the impossible. He demands inner peace. There is a point, however, where God Himself has to intervene. He has to bring the peace that the sufferer cannot grasp. He has to supernaturally intervene. Though there are rough times of life when circumstances are painful and disappointing, there are also crisis times when everything collapses within and peace is illusory, when one's stomach tightens into a knot and jaw clenches with fear. And yet, God commands us to be still at just these times because we should be seeing Him as the little gurgling stream, not the devastating earthquake near the sea. The self is bifurcated. Within oneself there should be peace while outside the self is turmoil and danger. This is because the Spirit is within us. He resides in us. The problem is this: in times of great suffering and fear, it's almost impossible to locate that peace inside of us. It feels as if God is commanding us to do the impossible, to make ourselves peaceful and faith-filled in a crisis. When we're beyond the point where we can rest in Him and find peace, God must take the initiative. He as to bring us to a point where He can give us peace. This isn't a mind-game in which we control our thoughts, but His supernatural gifting of peace. Peace could come no other way. After commanding us to be peaceful, God then commands us to know Him as God. This is the problem and crux of the matter. As we get to know Him, our trials increase. His way of sanctification and knowledge is suffering in trials. Our suffering intensifies as we age in Him. Yet His Peace often comes after the suffering, less during it. When we survive another bout of the crucible, we learn peace in retrospect. We learn to claim peace in the earlier, less intense stages but in the stage of suffering we're currently in, peace is caught up in the painful struggle to believe in His character and purposes, to know Him still deeper. Thus peace is always just out of our grasp. Unless He intervenes directly, peace is impossible. I pray for such comfort now, for His direct intervention, for peace. x

I have problems that don’t exactly make this list … at the same time I am guilty of every item on the list. My biggest problem is a lack of trust, not only in God, but in other people (including myself, at times). Trust and love are co-related. People who have not known earthly love, or consistent love, have difficulty believing or even understanding God’s love. People who have been deeply hurt or disappointed have difficulty believing and trusting the love of other Christians. Agape love should exist between God and Christians. God is a person. He is a friend. He is ever-present in our hearts. He, ultimately, is responsible for growing within us His agape love and increasing our love for Him. --- Prayer is the key to everything in our spiritual lives. There's a sort of desperate prayer, a prayer from the gut, a cri de coeur as the French say (cry of the heart), which seems so authentic and true that I know I've connected with God. But there's also a selfless prayer, a prayer not about me, but about others, a crying-out to God for help in a situation. This, too, connects with God. Every time I go through a hellish time on earth and am reduced and humbled enough to pray like this, I grow. I'm in one now. --- Certain phrases such as "walking with the Spirit" are so blithe they irritate me. There are walks. There are times of standing put. There are jogging times and even leaping times. The speed at which we move isn't necessarily contingent on our own spiritual growth, sincerity or prayers. Sometimes God has to work both ends (someone or something else) which delays our forward motion. Sometimes the changes in our heart are not fully known.

These are wise words. Words I needed to read. Thank you, Lottie. God will neither leave us nor forsake us. I will never be alone. In horrible times and circumstances, He remains inside of me. No matter what happens, He will never leave me. I keep telling myself this ... reminding myself that I am not alone. These, too, are wise words. Thank you Rosesam for writing this! Yes, God is sovereign. He will be a very present help in time of trouble, a refuge, THEREFORE I WILL NOT FEAR. God doesn't say He'll make me into a superwoman, but will be very present inside of me, where the Spirit lives, as I go through this trial. I find it both amazing and comforting to know the Spirit is inside of me. He is present. And he promises me His strength, not to increase mine, but to give me His -- God is my refuge AND strength... Thank you both.