Pastor Ralph Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cogickaaro Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Leaders are servants commanded to accomplish the will of the Lord. Any grumbling and complaining is against the will of the Lord, not the leader. This may not be true if the task being undertaken is not the will of the Lord, but from the ideas and direction of the leader outside of the will of the Lord. When hardships and adversities are encountered when the Lord is not involved can and will bring complaining and grumbling against the leader that cannot be overcome. In this case the grumbling and complaining is against the leader him/herself. Leaders take grumbling and complaining personally because the accusations are made directly to their person, their actions, and the development of whatever is being accomplished. Leaders who can be seen, touched, and actions felt are in the direct line of fire to receive criticism in the human form. Leaders may receive and internalize the critism personally. Realizing that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2); and, that a Christian leaders life is committed to the Lord's will, allow the leader to know "it's not about you." Knowing that loyalty to God, and completing His work that they were called to, will ensure leaders know that the criticism is not about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IvoryEagle Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Because we must recognize that God knows all that is going on. Sometimes, even as the leader is not acting according to our expectations, we must recognize that God sees that and will deal with the leader in his own way and in His own time. Just as Pharoah was the leader, God was hardening his heart so His Glory would be greatly revealed. The leader was wrong, dead wrong; but it was God's battle, not the peoples'. It is not up to us. Our job is to stay in the Word and govern ourselves according to it. Are there any cases where this might not be true? Perhaps. It was true when the Midwives refused to kill the male children in disobedience to Pharoah. Pharoah's daughter was also in contempt when she chose to raise Moses as her son when her father had a mandate out to kill all of the Hebrew boys. And don't forget about Rahab and Joshua. Sometimes, we just have to know the plan, the Word and the Will of God; at that time the Spirit will guide us to act according to the Spirit. Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? For the same reason they attempt to play God, ego. It never occurs to them that God speaks to anyone but them. They wink at God in their own transgressions and are shocked when God acts on His Word against them. In fact, His judgment starts with them. Because judgment starts in the position of leadership; more of God's Glory is displayed just as with Pharoah. What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Stay in the Word and say those words "it is not my battle, it is the Lord's. I shall stand back and watch Him work as only He can. It is not about me; it never has been." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parkerslope Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." As Christians, we are speakers for God. And as Preachers, we should be stepping on the toes of those who listen, to make sure they know they need to change. The only material we use to teach others is from the Bible, God's Word, and as such, we speak for God to change the lives of both the Christian and non-Christian alike. God's Word is not easy to follow sometimes, but we need to push on to maturity. God is our Leader! God is our Judge! What pleases God, should please us as we obey Him. NO - man is not on top. We either serve God or the Devil. So complaints are laid against us and those whom we serve. We tend to take complaints personally, because it is the result of something we have said or done. People can see us but cannot see God. And sometimes we feel like Moses did when he struck the Rock for water. The complaints are so unjust that we forget we are the ambassadors for Jesus. When we preach or teach the Word of God, we must have in our mind that "I am speaking for God and not myself". We are still lowly humans through whom God speaks His message. In that manner, we must become a willing mouth-piece for our God and not take it personally if people complain about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iam4_1god Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Leaders represent the Lord. They are responsible for teaching and leading the children of God. I don't really know how to answer the next couple of questions, except to say that I have known leaders that were just puffed up-full of themselves. They thought they deserved to be worshipped instead of worshipping God. I used to go from church to church looking for a thrill, and excitement, but I learned that it is not about what I can get out of fellowship-it's what God can give someone else through me. The Bible gives us clear instructions as to how we can encourage each other, and lift each other up. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we should be "entertained" at church. Some leaders care about numbers only because they are looking to increase offerings. I believe that, when we go to church, we should give respect to the leaders, but we should never worship them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenEsther Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Taking our frustrations out on a leader seems less dangerous. We know about the 'preverbual lightening bolt' if we address God in anger. Leaders take complaints personally because they too are human.It' not easy being a target for the Lord. It has to be an honor. To risk all! For Jesus sake! To learn that it's not "about you" is having been broken down a few times. Reaching out to Our Father for strength. Knowing what you are saying is the truth, from the Bible. God's Holy Word. Living a clean life.Serving the Lord with great expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." 1. Because they are God's chosen representative. 2. I don't know of any. 3.Why do parents take complaints so seriously. Leaders and parents can both relate to this I think. We love our little flock so much. They have been entrusted to us. It hurts! Do you think God hurts? I do. I believe He can handle it however I believe it hurts. 4. I feel like I should just put down GUILTY in every response. I seem to be a slow learner and God has to teach me. It takes pain sometimes for me to learn. I don't believe God wants to inflict pain. I believe He allows somethings to happen that are not good in and of themselves and I believe we have a choice how we respond. I seem to make the wrong choice so many times. I am so sorry Lord! It is all about You and here I am thinking about me. I am so sorry for all the hurt I have caused you so many times. Thank you for your constant faithfulness to us. God Bless!!! Jen Numbers 6:24-26 I feel like words are so inadeguate but I do like what the Chinese (in one dialect) say and I don't have the accents on my computer and the spelling might be wrong but it is Bau chyan (sorry from the heart)! It is a more sincere form of I'm sorry. Maybe I should also say "thank You from the heart" although I can never adequately thank You. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastor neal Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastor neal Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Grumbling against a leader is a direct insult against our Lord for it is He who commands the leader on all facets of the journey; from direction of travel; the time in trek and to availability of food and water. In one's weak moments it is possible to forget to whom the blame is actually offending when addressing a leader. There is only one occasion, in my opinion, that the above does not hold true. If a leader take it upon himself to ignore the Lord's calling and commandments, instead doing as he feels is right that he should shoulder the blame from his followers. Of course this "insight" of the leader's will not last long before feeling God's wrath. Insults, critics and Malicous attacks, although directed at the lord, will always affect the human being to whom they are directed. Human nature is such a sensitive state that anyone who has a conscious and takes on a detail, applying themselves faithfully, will feel that they have disappointed, or dropped the ball when they are met with a deluge of insults. Remembering that these condescending insults are against the Lord and not one's self is very difficult but can and must be done. When these people begin to criticize Moses he was acting on behalf of the Lord. He knew this, so did the "hecklers" but in their desperation it mattered not. Remind them that you are working on behalf of the Lord and that He is the one in charge, hence all grumbling and unrest goes right to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delivered Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? If a leader is correctly leading his sheep, speaking boldly God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charisbarak Posted March 6, 2011 Report Share Posted March 6, 2011 It shows we're not happy with the leader God had chosen to rule over us. I'm sure it might not be true with a corrupt leader, but God is in control. Leaders are the ones to take criticism because they are in the limelight--not God. This puts things in their control and they have failed. Remember that God is in control--he puts people in authority for us to obey in His place. We need to trust Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bondservantmccue Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." If the leader is a chosen leader, the person grumbling is grumbling against God, not the leader. You need to be very careful about grumbling and complaining, God is not the author of confusion, and He will not be involved in anything or any person that is in this type of atmosphere or condition. You don't want to war against God, you will be in a no win situation. If the leader is a chosen vessel, that is truly working for the good of the kingdom of God, the leader that is chosen of God and not man-called will always be in the will of God if He is praying about all the decisions they make, if a person is not called for the task at hand; the task will not benifit anyone and will fail. No one likes to be wrong or to be talked about especially some one in charge. When we get to a point that we know it all, and need no rebukes from God we are in for a failure, no one is perfect yet and the only person that should be doing the rebuking, should be someone of a leadership position that has already been there and did what you are trying to do. It always pays to listen more than talking, I have found out that you will gain more knowledge by listening to others. Maranatha; Bondservantmccue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalume Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." - grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord because is the Lord choose the leader and the lord lead trough the man He choose. Example : "6 When they said, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onyon53 Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." The leader is God's choice. When people are grumbling against the leader they are grumbling against the person GOD chosen. I started to say yes, that if the person is not really chosen by God. Sometimes people will take a position in the church just abcause they were ask to take it. God will still use that person to His purpose. Some leaders take everything personally they forget they are doing God's work and take everything to heart, good or bad. They don't or don't want to let God take the grumbling or praise. For God to remind them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted March 7, 2011 Report Share Posted March 7, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Where the leader in question is doing God's will, then any grumbling against leadershp in accordance with that will is grumbling against God rather than the leader (a case of shooting the messenger). Are there any cases where this might not be true? Here's the difficult bit. If a leader isn't acting in accordance with God's will then any grumbling will be about the leader and not about God. The difficult bit is knowing when anyone isn't doing God's will. My own thought on that is that this has to be left to God to deal with. We shouldn't grumble, even if we think that someone is leading outside God's will unless God tells us, in a very clear way to do something about it. Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? Because the complant is actually directed at the leader usually because the complainer is afraid to complain to God. What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Give it all to God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Grace Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Grumbling against a leader can really be grumbling against the Lord, when a leader is in close communion with God for direction and in next steps in leadership. That leader is being a vessel that God uses for HIS will. So therefore, if any be against that leader, they will be against God. Are there cases when this is not true? Yes and yes and yes! Some leaders are selected by men, are ruled over by men and act on men's advice that are really contrary to God and His word. If any leadership is not grounded themselves in God's Word and have become people pleasing leadership in exchange for power and prestige, then they are prime candidates to lead in an ungodly way or to become puffed up and prideful causing the downfall of many. This is difficult for Godly people under the leadership, but we also, must be in communion with God and prayerful on our next steps. Sometimes we will be called to speak the truth in love (and to KNOW the truth ourselves not mindlessly following any person!) and sometimes we are called to leave such leadership, but we too, are vessels of God, and we may be called to a time such as this to make a difference and ushering in God's Kingdom in Spirit. I've seen changes made in these areas if we don't give up....but the key is doing it GOD'S way. He ushers in the changes. And sometimes, we will suffer in it and we will not be listened to, yet God instructs clearly when it's time to stay or time to wipe our feet and leave. We MUST make sure we are in God's will every time though. Why do leaders take complaints so personally? Perhaps we lose the purpose behind everything. If we forget we are instruments of use for God's will, we will remember and be prepared for the world and satan to attack us in it. But if it becomes "our" will and about "our" leadership, then we will look at it in a more worldly way and give into our pride in leading. We want everyone to just agree and do it. But really in humbleness, we may have some of God's will revealed through another, so being prayerful and humble and watching for God in those times is the key to keeping us grounded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanMary Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Leaders have been given a "place" of authority. When one grumbles against a leader one grumbles at the One who delegated the authority. Are there any cases where this might not be true? I'm assuming we're talking about Christian leaders. This might not be true when a leader is self appointed or has called himself/herself into ministry and whose purposes are self serving, rather than being motivated to serve God. There are abusive leaders who need to be corrected or removed because they are destructive to the sheep. A local Pastor in our town is a rageaholic and has pushed, shoved, verbally and physically abused members of "his" church. He told his denomination that his congregation was "picking on him", and they kept him in place. The flock was damaged, and scattered, some so wounded they do not want to go to any church in the future. Esthetically, it's a beautiful church with curb appeal...the grounds are manicured, the building is lovely and inviting, but it's a "whited sepulcher" full of corruption. Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? I think if it's a "sound" leader who is following hard after God, complaints feel like ingratitude, invalidating the hard work being poured into the ministry. The complaint is directed at the leader, even though the dissatisfaction of the complainer may be directed toward God. What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Lots of time, growth, humility, objectivity, insight into behavior, and lots of prayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD Posted March 8, 2011 Report Share Posted March 8, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Leader, particularly spiritual leaders are acting in God's stead and as He directs them, so when people grumble against that leader, they are in essence grumbling against God. . . - Cases where this might not apply is when the leader has no connection or relationship with God and thereby does not represent Him. . . - Leaders take complaints personally because they sometimes forget that they are following the Leading of God. We are under-shepherds and Jesus is the Chief Shepherd. . . - The things we can and should do on a continuous basis that will help us to realize that it is not about us is to meditate in the Word of God, study the Word of God, and live or walk in agreement with the Word of God. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anne1151 Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." 1.Because God is the supreme being,the one in charge, not the leader. The leader is just following Gods instructions. The people are never content, neither then, or now. Always wanting more. 2 Yes, when the leader is not following Gods instrctions. 3. Complaints make a person defensive, feel weakened, and feel at fault. 4. Remember to be humble, place the praise where it belongs, in Gods hands. He also has hands capable of handling the grumbling. We must keep a loving heat and a firm belief that God is in control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitar Jim Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? In Moses' case the Israelites were deathly afraid of The Lord. Moses was a mere man and therefore approachable. Under God's orders Moses had completely turned their world around in a direction with which they were totally unfamiliar. We have to remember they were slaves prior to this exodus and had no self-esteem and very low self-worth. They just wanted to feel safe. Even with God present among them they still couldn't cope well with their new circumstances. They in a sense blamed God for all that but directed their displeasure at Moses. Are there any cases where this might not be true? Of course. Sometimes you just get bad leaders, simple as that. These days in churches, ministers don't often get God visiting them personally as He did in Biblical times, nor do they hear His voice clearly in visions and dreams. In pretty much all cases ministers get their instructions and directions from God via the Word of God, the Bible. I personally have seen glaring examples of ministers trying to take their church in a direction that everyone except the minister can see is wrong. It's only natural that people will grumble against the man himself and not against God. Also, some people just aren't cut out to be men of the cloth. They might have character flaws that make them not good at their jobs or just plain hard to get along with. In cases like these the grumbling would be against the man and not his God. Many years ago my sister's church had a real problem with their elders who'd become corrupted by demonic influence and led the whole church congregation in a direction that was incredibly damaging by teaching a literal doctrine of demons. That was a clear cut case of the leaders getting it wrong. Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? I think it's because the leader knows he's doing God's Will and yet the people he's leading just won't be satisfied. It seems to be human nature to whine when things aren't EXACTLY how we want them to be, or in some cases take too long to be the way we like them. The leader would feel a total sense of exasperation . . . something along the lines of: What do I have to do to satisfy these people? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Experience is the best teacher of that lesson. Also a focus on God through Bible reading and prayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanks Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? We find the Israelites constantly complaining. More concerned about their stomachs than their hearts and minds. They are selfish with a weak faith and not really trusting God at all. Looking for a scapegoat they but all the blame on Moses. They must have known Moses was only obeying God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubilee Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Q2. (Exodus 16:7-8) Why can grumbling against a leader really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord? Are there any cases where this might not be true? Why do leaders tend to take complaints so personally? What does it take to learn that "it's not about you." Grumbling against a leader can really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord because leaders are the ambassadors of the Lord. God does not practice democracy. He does not have a parliament. God practices theocracy. He rules through his leaders he has chosen. So any grumbling against a leader is a symptom of grumbling against God directly. There are numerous cases where this might not be true. The Israelites rebelled against Moses. Moses' own brother Aaron and his sister Miriam grumbled against him. Leaders tend to take complaints so personally because it is a direct attack on their personality and their leadership. It takes humility before the Lord to learn that "it's not about you." Moses is an example of this. Moses pleaded on behalf of his own brother Aaron and sister Miriam and Miriam was restored back to health. Moses pleaded on behalf of the Israelites. It takes courage to learn that "it's not about you." We can see how Moses and Samuel exhibited this in their leadership role when the people rebelled against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubilee Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 In the Book of Numbers 16: 19, 42 Korah rebelled against Moses authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raph Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Grumbling against a leader can really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord as leaders are carrying out the Lord's instructions. I think there cases where this might not be true especially where the leader fails or neglects to adhere to God's instructions and do things that are contrary to the Lord's instructions. In this case grumbling of the people can be justified. Leaders tend to take complaints so personally because they fail to understand that, people are not complaining against them but against God. To learn that "it's not about you." it takes understanding the meaning of leadership and that, leadership is not the person who leads but the Lord himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest frobeli Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Grumbling against a leader can really be a symptom of grumbling against the Lord as leaders are carrying out the Lord's instructions. I think there cases where this might not be true especially where the leader fails or neglects to adhere to God's instructions and do things that are contrary to the Lord's instructions. In this case grumbling of the people can be justified. Leaders tend to take complaints so personally because they fail to understand that, people are not complaining against them but against God. To learn that "it's not about you." it takes understanding the meaning of leadership and that, leadership is not the person who leads but the Lord himself. + Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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