Pastor Ralph Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanMary Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 On 8/15/2017 at 2:19 PM, Pastor Ralph said: Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? 1. The church we're now attending experienced this co-opting years ago. The Holy Spirit was welcomed into what had become "dry" ground. When He showed up and worship became true worship (versus just singing a few catchy choruses) 200 people said "We're outta here! We like the old" (code for dead, plastic, totally preplanned with a printed bulletin scripting exactly what to expect at every moment). Those 200 had gradually co-opted the church over time, filling key positions...deacons, elders, teachers....and their voice and opinions drove out several pastors, before the new one came in with the desire to allow Holy Spirit freedom, (not chaos because Holy Spirit does not create confusion, but people can be "messy" when they experience His Presence). The "old guard" wanted the comfort of control (major symptom of dysfunction and deadly in all relationships, including and especially in church). After they left in anger and hostility, the church suffered and struggled but eventually recovered but with scars. 2. Innovation must follow the leading of Holy Spirit, and the guidance of scripture. Paul had great advice for handling the unruly and selfish Corinthians who were babes in the faith and had no idea how to worship and participate in this new thing called CHURCH. If innovation leans toward gratifying flesh it's on the wrong track. Too much innovation in another local church is a leader in this gratification. A large coffee shop with large T.V. screens is adjacent to their sanctuary where one can "view" the service while chatting and enjoying a latte and snack with feet up on another chair, as voyeurs rather than participants in "worship" . This "stuff" has almost wiped out reverence for the Lord in our day in many churches. Another church we visited while searching for a church in the area, actually had one of those crystal balls on the ceiling which rotated and sparkled when the lights were dimmed. The bulletin said This is what to expect at our church: Someone will come out and welcome you, then there will be loud music, someone else will come out and give a talk, and when you see people leaving you'll know it's time to leave. It had a night club atmosphere with coffee and donuts brought into the service (lots of coffee stains on the carpet...) Surprisingly there were quite a few in attendance. We were not greeted or welcomed and no one spoke to us during our one time only visit. Their website said they feature: "Intentional fellowship" whatever that means, but showed lots of people gathered around various tables eating. I can't recall who the wise person was who said something to the effect of: "Whatever is used to attract them must continue in order to keep them". Gratifying the flesh may attract some but the flesh is never satisfied and always wants more and more, so here we are in many churches today with no idea what a disciple is, what true worship is, what holiness means, the importance of God's Word in each life, what reverent awe of the Lord is, and political correctness has replaced Christian love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofel Posted September 11, 2017 Report Share Posted September 11, 2017 Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Answer: Allowing people like them to re-design the church image in the community will only put the church in sure danger of loosing its heavenly image and objective to mankind. Redesign worship? Answer: It may loose the spiritual solemnity of worship itself. Redesign the preaching? Answer: Listeners or brethren may not be bless. How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? Answer: By being committed and walking closely to Him and by doing what is only pleasing to the Lord God almighty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anstey Jeremiah Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 I don't know what you mean by uncommitted people but I think the real threat are those who are committed. Committed that God should no longer be the one who adds to the church. Committed that God is not doing a very good job. Committed that In comparison with other churches, God is making them look real bad. Maybe we should do like them and add them our way. You know, hold a few financial seminars, have any kind of sessions that youths would like . In other words seduce the community into coming close enough to get them in the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blezed Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 On 8/15/2017 at 5:19 PM, Pastor Ralph said: Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? People without deep heart commitment would be nothing but disruptive against God and his people. They claim to be Christians but they are seeking their own best interest. Yes, in today's time some people feel that the church need to be redesigned to attract the millennials. Sometimes change is needed, but we must be careful of the real motive. We must maintain true worship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AltonB Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? That could and would a dangerous move to allow uncommitted people to do anything, especially when it comes to the House of God. False worshippers will and can create havoc in Gods house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinton Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 Q3 Ezra 4: v1>3 The work of God will be seen as human work. there will be no holy spirit presence and they will rely on human insight. which in turn will lead to preaching being humanised. salvation will not be preached, restoration and forgiveness will not be preached. all things will be done with human understanding. the work of God will then be turned into a money making business. but we mere human beings keep forgetting that there are people who have tried this but not succeeded. God will allow no man to play with Him or his word. That is why the church leaders must be true worshippers of God and continuously seek his face. We see so many people open their own churches, ministries and leadership titles based on their own initiative and human understanding. For their own selfish reasons. Many of them have big followings. But they will be held accountable by God for all the misled souls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Dave Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church's image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God's heart? This is something John talked much about. In 2 John 11 when he clearly stated that “Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work”. John talked much about association with evil and it all points to the downward spiral we need to avoid. The church should be about love more than anything and anyone who doesn’t preach that is not of God. Innovation is okay if the gospel message doesn’t change. Love and the Cross are what it’s all about. I hear innovation all the time when preachers use real -time examples and still sum it up with what Jesus did for us. You can’t innovate the truth though. It must remain. If any innovation is to take place, perhaps going into a place where the truth is mixed with worldliness and innovating with the truth is okay but not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acuatzil Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 1. Dilution of true worship and pure teachings which eventually lead to people falling away. 2. Dilution of worship of Almighty God...Jehova, Jesus as Lord. I've been to churches where they worship a "higher power" 3. If the preaching isn't bible based it's false teaching. Even such we are called by God to examine the scriptures. There are many corporate churches where it seems to me, like people rely on what the preacher says more than what God's word says. 4. If we seek God's guidance, lean on Him for wisdom and understanding He will point us in the right direction even for our modern times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everlastingfather Posted September 12, 2017 Report Share Posted September 12, 2017 Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? I believe an uncommitted people "playing" church, and satisfying themselves will only devise a "dead" church where the Holy Spirit cannot dwell. We can't deviate from the WORD OF GOD, preach/teach the WORD... not our words, but the word of GOD. Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santhana David Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 Q3. 1) (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church's image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? Ultimately, there will be two groups of people - one group called “FEW,” and the other, “MANY.” – “MANY will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers!’” (Matt 7:23) Evidently, there many within the Church, the so called self deceived who profess Jesus, whose activities seem to have marks of genuine ministry – but Jesus, with a broken heart, will declare to them, “I don’t know you,” When one lives a life compromised with sin one will not know where they’re heading towards. Remember what Jesus said, ‘Are you therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? (Mk 12:24) Really, what could be more deadly than diluted faith in Jesus? In Penang, Malaysia, where I live has sort of become mainstream attraction, where even non-Christians have added a Christian name to their secular names - some of them even come to Church services– they don’t think about the lives of service or the persecution the church undergoes. They and even Christians within the parish are “lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, … haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God” (2Tim 3:2–4). They might lead church organizations or be involved in mission trips but live within a watered down “Good News.” They even introduce Biblical based form of games, camps or other activities to make Christianity look much simpler to follow and practice. Then in Church these lukewarm Christians give half hearted talks on the faith and propagate lethargic ways or forms of worship which might actually insinuate the latest way of being Christian and new way of worship and fellowship. These so called “true” followers of Christ if allowed may even teach others, especially the young to justify sins until it becomes a norm even within the parish church as a whole. I hope I’m not being judgmental and surely not bulking all Churches and Christians as a whole. But, mind you, if we go a little deeper into this zone it gets scarier. With this mindset, Christians might want to think that they know what Christianity is all about. These acts of hypocrisy actually waters down the image of the Church not only from within but also from the outside – where non Christians look upon the Church as a house of God filled with hypocrites, living in pretense. If we get too caught with this kind of Christian lifestyle and worship, Oh! My!!! When we knock at the door asking the Lord to open the door for us, again Jesus will definitely say, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers” (Matt. 7:23) b 2) How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God's heart? “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you” (Mk 9:19) and later He says “Everything is possible for one who believes.” (Mk 9:23) And I believe there was a doubt in Jesus about our faith. I think I’m definitely not alone and to be open and honest about my feelings, I would say that most Christ followers have at one time or another struggled with doubts and it’s sad to say that I know sincere Christians who have been believers for years who still struggle with faith. “Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.” (Hebr 3:1~2) The book of Hebrews provides Christians with vital words to all who are "partakers of the heavenly calling." Is there a biblical pattern that we can ensue that will help us? Yes, this is a course of action that has been called, “The Master’s Plan,” which is an application of New Testament principles which, by the way, coincide with insights of modern research by the church growth specialists concerning the way we are able to most effectively worship and grow in our faith. God is calling for a people who are free from the materialism and foolishness of this world, basically, Christians who are not living for the world, but who wake up each morning and hear Jesus calling them to Himself. I believe there are many in the body of Christ who truly are not bound to anything on this earth. You could take away their house, bank account, job or business - everything but the clothes on their back - and yet still they would love God with all their heart. We need to understand that all our striving against sin, all our sanctified service to God and crying out in prayer are not considered faithfulness? I believe that faithfulness to God is impossible unless it springs from a trusting and believing heart! The soil of the human heart must be properly “mixed and fertilized” by walking by the Spirit (Acts 1:8; 4:31; Eph. 5:18) and praying for laborers for the harvest (Luke 10:2); for open doors and the ability to make the Gospel clear (Col. 4:4) Finally, most of time in our lives, we are tempted to do things we know we shouldn't do. Just walk away if the temptation is hard, and if it just keeps coming, we need to pray and ask God to help take away the temptation, and put ourselves in another situation else to distract ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighthouse2014 Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 On 8/15/2017 at 4:19 PM, Pastor Ralph said: Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? The danger of letting people who do not have a close relationship with the Lord would ruin the church's image in the community. They would insist that their ideas and ways of belief would be better because of changing culture of society and it's ideas of the bible. Their preaching would be more on the lines of prosperity instead of the trails and tribulations that come with being a true believer in Christ. We can be innovative and still be faithful to God's heart by relating how things of this day and age are no different then the days of old. We are still sinners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mansfield Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 Christians have started compromising with the world. They began to find some things that God speak against ok. The gospel is not to be compromised. We need true believers to stand up for God and His Word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 The churches globally have a mixed group of people. The ones who are truly committed with their hearts want to take every effort for the upliftment of the church and the community, however the other lot may be looking for personal gain and glory. The latter do so because they have no commitment towards and close walk with God. The leading of the Holy Spirit does not exist amongst such a community. The dangers of allowing people to redesign worship would be allowing them to portray Christ in a wrong way. Our testimony is our image and our life that we live, in a way that pleases God. The people will be led astray and follow footsteps which are not aligned to God's will. We can be innovative by ensuring that the way we redesign our worship is by the leading of the Holy Spirit. We can stop practices that tend people to be led to focus on music such as ensure that the music is sober and the words of the songs are well understood by those who are singing, allow the worshiper to sing from their hearts with the words clearly displayed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Jerry Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 The danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment to a close walk with God redesign the church’s image is that they will try to pollute the church with their kind of worship. They will start to worship the things that they had done to help and not give God the credit for their inspiration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justpassinthrough Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 On 8/15/2017 at 4:19 PM, Pastor Ralph said: Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? Everything we do should come from being led by the Spirit, and have it's foundation and pattern from the scriptures. Programs and "good ideas" will not transform people's lives, nor change communities for Christ Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleezah Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 The keyword in this question is "uncommitted". An uncommitted person is less likely to complete anything. They lack focus and purpose. The God we serve is unchangeable, we don't need to reinvent the will. The blueprint is already laid out in the Scriptures. To "me", innovation could be a waste of time and energy in our walk of faith with God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eilen Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 The Samaritans who offered to help were not followers of God. They had their own pagan form of worship and just wanted the opportunity to not have the Temple constructed. Their help would have tainted God's teachings and possibly the Jews' faith. It would have been an abomination; why were the nonbelievers involved in rebuilding the temple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambi Girouard Posted September 13, 2017 Report Share Posted September 13, 2017 On 8/15/2017 at 5:19 PM, Pastor Ralph said: Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? When we live in a society outside our belief system it is easy to become comfortable with its allure – especially if it allows us to act without any moral or social responsibility for our actions. It is interesting to note that Babylonian worship was celebrated with the most disgusting and immoral practices. But, within 1000 years, Babylonianism became the religion of the world, in one form or another, and, it rejected the Divine revelation of Jewish tradition. Faith played a very dramatic role for those who returned to Jerusalem, and, doubt must have played a role in the decision for those who stayed behind in Babylon. The Bible says that doubt is a destroyer of life. James 1:5-8 tells us that when we ask God for wisdom, we are to ask in faith, without doubt. Those who follow God in the journey of Life follow Him because they trust Him. That trust comes from hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). God gave us the Bible as a testimony of His works in the past, so we will have a reason to trust Him in the present. “I will remember the deeds of the LORD. I will remember your miracles of long age.” (Psalm 77:11). In order for us to have faith in God, we must study His word in order to know what He has said. It also takes prayer. We must learn to talk to Him and listen to His Word. For the true believer life upon earth is a continual warfare, and an experience in conflict. St. Paul (1 Timothy 4:7-8) tells us: “… nourish (yourselves) on the words of the faith and … sound teaching. Avoid profane and silly myths. Train yourself for devotion, for, while physical training is of limited value, devotion is valuable in every respect, since it holds a promise of life both for the present and for the future.” St. Paul likens the spiritual life to a game – a race (1 Corinthians 9:24-27). He uses the image of the race as an example of spiritual life which requires discipline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanks Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church's image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God's heart? I would question their motivation – as an uncommitted believer it can only be for self-gain. Be it money, power, a hidden agenda, or even one of Satan’s plans to weaken the church’s influence in the community it serves. Perhaps the ultimate goal is to spread false teachings. The only way to be effective is to preach the true Word and not messages that “tickle the ears”. I know this will not lead to a very popular church. I sometimes wonder if people are not more interested in being entertained than receiving the Word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambi Girouard Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 Today (9/14-17) I heard on the news that the city of Maryland in the U.S. is going to allow non-citizens to vote for elections in this country. How do you think these non-citizen will vote? I believe that they will vote for their own ends and our defeat. We have everything to lose. They have everything to gain. We are living in a society that is forcing us into becoming an inclusive society. What does that mean? From the internet comes this definition: An inclusive society is a society that over-rides differences of race, gender, class, generation, and geography, and ensures inclusion, equality of opportunity as well as. capability of all members of the society to determine an agreed set of social institutions. that govern social interaction This means that the common denominator for how we live will be chosen by people not God. We are being told that history is irrelevant. That the common sense of the Bible is no longer common sense. In this “new age” of denying God we have, somehow, become more enlightened. Today the Christian community is being called “backward.” Our worship has become people and things, and our preaching has become secular oriented. This is all leading us to anxiety and chaos, but, unfortunately, we don’t see why? We need to get back to Jerusalem our spiritual roots and rebuild what is being lost in our culture. We need to prove by the way we live that we have really turned from our sinful ways back to God (Matthew 3:1-17). To be productive for God, we must obey His teachings, resist temptation to follow a sinful society’s pull, actively serve and help others, and share our faith more openly in spite of counterattacks. This is what the Jewish nation, of old, did to rebuild their faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zilka Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? All around the world we can find uncommitted People and try to make confrontation between us. In this Situation we can see with our eyes as experience and Need God always in our way. Because I know God loves everybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertha Posted September 14, 2017 Report Share Posted September 14, 2017 What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church’s image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God’s heart? I was a member of a small church that just couldn't seem to grow. Turns out that the older members of the church had too much control of what went on in "their" church: how much the pastor was to get paid, how the services were to be performed, even making sure we didn't go over the 2 hours that the service was scheduled for. The pastor was at fault for letting this continue for several years. People came and left. The older members eventually turned on their pastor and all chaos broke loose. The congregation was divided and split after so much rift between them. I, myself, made the decision to leave. I couldn't see how God could be in the midst of all this. The Holy Spirit was not given it's place in the church, therefore decisions were made by men for selfish reasons. A true relationship with Jesus was obviously lacking. True worship requires a repentant heart, a committed heart, a humble heart, and a true love for Jesus: a willingness to be led by God's Holy Spirit and not our own selfish desires. I believe when we love God and understand that we are but vessels in His hands and that our purpose in this life is to do His will, we can work in harmony: allowing ourselves to be guided and directed by the Holy Spirit. It takes a humble spirit, a love for God and for the church(people), an understanding of God's word and obedience, to be able to accomplish great things that will honor God, and Him only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionwolf Posted September 15, 2017 Report Share Posted September 15, 2017 Q3. (Ezra 4:1-3) Sometimes uncommitted people try to co-opt true worship for their own ends, as did the enemies of the Jews. What is the danger of letting people without a deep heart commitment and close walk with God redesign the church's image in the community? Redesign worship? Redesign the preaching? How can we be innovative and still be faithful to God's heart? We have seen the uncommitted co-opt true worship and salvation today and in times past. The Jewish elders knew the offer from their enemies was not a gift. Their worship would have been polluted and diluted, God would have been lost and forgotten. People today without the same commitment see church as social activity. The image to be broadcast is one of man for man. Worship becomes something to please man, not God. The preaching becomes flattering to the ear, something not to offend. Again, designed for man's pleasure. We can be innovative and still remain faithful to God. But with any change God must remain central to the change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charisbarak Posted September 16, 2017 Report Share Posted September 16, 2017 The danger lies in God's plans given to them to construct the temple might not be followed or be changed. They would not respect the Torah probably. God says not to have unequal yoke---working with those not committed to God. Let them in a little and they'll overpower soon. No changes to what God ordained, please. Plus the teaching and worship would not be wholeheartedly to God. There are places we can write our own prayers, poems, songs, but be true to the Lord with every word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.