14. Wineskins

[Pastor Ralph]

Please share your thoughts on one or more of the questions in this lesson. 

[Isaac L]

On 8/19/2020 at 9:15 AM, Pastor Ralph said:

Please share your thoughts on one or more of the questions in this lesson. 

1. Does Jesus speak against fasting in this passage? What does he teach about fasting, if anything, in this passage?

Here the Pharisees were more interested in putting Jesus down than making a sincere inquiry into fasting, so Jesus' answer was to deal with them. He did not say that his disciples should not fast. He only said there was no need to do so while he was with them. He even said there would come a time when he would be taken away and they would fast.

As a corollary, Jesus even taught, "When you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that it will not be obvious to others.." (Matthew 6:17) He did expect people to fast; he only told them not to fast hypocritically like the Pharisees. Some Bible translations also quote Jesus as saying that a certain kind of demon is only cast out by prayer and fasting (Matthew 17:21; Mark 9:29).

1. What are the structures in our lives and society that are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives?

It is hard to generalize what structures are incompatible with the life of the Spirit. I think it is sometimes not necessarily the structure itself, but the inflexibility of the key figures running the structure, that might hinder the work of the Spirit.

One structure hinted at in the early church is the over-organization and over-rigidity in a worship service that may show contempt for any unforeseen manifestation of the Spirit or directly forbid it. Hence Paul told the church not to quench the Spirit nor treat prophecies with contempt, though they must of course examine everything (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21).

In today's highly organized ecclesiastical structure and activity, the church may just encourage members to invite middle-class friends much like themselves to church. The norm of things may prevent innovative or slightly risky ventures to evangelize fringe segments of society. That's why para-church organizations usually fare better to reach, say, low-educated people, prostitutes, factory workers, etc. Or para-church groups may be more focused in promoting a particular strength, like Jesus-Walk in Bible study, Ellel in healing, etc., and hence you may associate it with having more "life" or "impact" in that area. In missiology, we sometimes call established (rigid) churches modalities, and incipient (vibrant) movements sodalities. A sodality is a form of the universal church, expressed in specialized, task-oriented form, as opposed to the Christian church in its local, diocesan modality form (Wikipedia). It seems to me that in Acts the church at Jerusalem was like a modality, and the teams led by Paul and Barnabas, as well as Philip the evangelist, were like sodalities.

1. Please share a struggle you had with trying to contain the Life of Christ in an "old wineskin"? Some of your brothers and sisters may understand the concept better if you'll share personally in your discussion group.

One and a half year ago, my friend and I had started a different kind of cell group to reach people who were not coming to church services. Initially, with the pastor's approval, we were organizing outings as well as home parties, incorporating food, games with some seeker-friendly discussion/talk - like what's the meaning of Christmas, what are some things to be thankful for at Thanksgiving, how to get out of loneliness and depression, etc. We weren't using those Bible teaching notes tagged to the weekly Sunday sermon, that the other cell groups were doing. After a while, the church still decided to "normalize" our content, especially so with the COVID threat limiting us to meetings of no more than five people. Hence this cell group hasn't fulfilled its mission of outreach yet, although our founding members have remained. On reflection, it was like a sodality that could not sustain its nature and mission within a modality.

 

[haar]

1.    Does Jesus speak against fasting in this passage? What does he teach about fasting, if anything, in this passage? Jesus does not teach against fasting. He teaches that there is time for everything and thus there is time for fasting and time for feasting.

2.    What are the structures in our lives and society that are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives? Our social old customs and beliefs that are not compatible with the new Christ-like faith principle. These should be discarded.

3.    Please share a struggle you had with trying to contain the Life of Christ in an "old wineskin"? Some of your brothers and sisters may understand the concept better if you'll share personally in your discussion group. Some cultural celebrations in the part of where I come from are more towards idol worship which are not compatible with Christian faith. So I do not partake in them. Others find my position as unsocial. 

 

[Irmela]

1. Does Jesus speak against fasting in this passage? What does he teach about fasting, if anything, in this passage?                                           No, He does not teach against fasting.   JESUS is saying that there are times to fast. Definately not while the Bridegroom hosts the wedding celebration in other words His disciples will not fast while He is ushering in the Kingdom of God. 

[hanks]

1. Does Jesus speak against fasting in this passage? What does He teach about fasting, if anything, in this passage?

Jesus was not speaking against fasting, but states that there is no reason for His disciples to fast while He is with them – this was a time of feasting, not fasting. In this passage He is associating fasting with sorrow and mourning, and tells them that when He leaves them, in death, they could fast as an expression of grief.

[hanks]

2. What are the structures in our lives and society that are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives?

Jesus Christ came to earth, and gave His life, to bring us forgiveness of sin and salvation. With Him comes a new covenant which was not meant to be a patch-up of the old religious system of Judaism with its rituals, rules and traditions. The gospel did not fit into this old rigid legalistic system of religion, since it offered grace whereas all Judaism could offer was law and rule keeping. The law could only point out sin and condemn people, but Jesus fulfilled the law, therefore there is no longer any need to continue with the old rituals - for sacrifices, priests, temples, and ceremonies. So, we have a new way of expressing personal faith, and certain structures we encounter are incompatible with our spiritual life. These are the traditions, rituals, rules, and even our own self-righteousness that hinders.  

[hanks]

3. Please share a struggle you had with trying to contain the Life of Christ in an "old wineskin"? Some of your brothers and sisters may understand the concept better if you'll share personally in your discussion group.

No big problems here. It is more about me being in my comfort zone. Many of us are so content with the old wine that we don’t want to try the new wine. We are inclined to adhere to the old way things are done, and any deviation from these norms can upset one tremendously. This is especially true as one gets older. I have no difficulty in trying something new. I love the old hymns and it took me quite a while to get used to the new songs. But I must now admit there are many of the new ones I love, but some I feel have nothing to do with worshipping our Lord, being more of a form of entertainment. We have to be careful, for loyalty to the old ways may prevent us from believing and certainly will keep us from growing. There is the danger that many may even reject Christianity in its new so called modern format of today. Which to me borders on a form of entertainment rather than worshipping our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 

[kreilly]

What are the structures in our lives and society that are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives?

Obviously, legalism is one of the things that we often struggle with once we become Christians.  The Pharisees struggled with it, but we do too, every time we think we are better than someone else because we don't struggle with the same sin they struggle with.  That attitude of spiritual pride and self-righteousness is incompatible with the Spirit, who teaches us to be humble as Jesus was humble.  I think in society, Christians often encourage each other to excel according to the world's idea of success (get good grades, get a good job, be a good parent, keep a nice house) more than they encourage each other to make sacrifices and build the Kingdom of God.  Sometimes education, career, finances, even family (not literally) have to be sacrificed in order to further the Kingdom.  Prioritizing those things above Jesus is incompatible with the life of the Spirit.  

Please share a struggle you had with trying to contain the Life of Christ in an "old wineskin"?

I was watching a preacher on TV today talk about when his kids were teenagers and "went off" on him, he would say "thank you" when they finished unloading their emotions.  He said he was willing to absorb what they were lashing out about.  I was always taught to respect my parents and taught my daughter the same thing.  When she lashed out at me, I became angry with her because I was trying to make her fit into that mold.  It was very convicting, to realize I didn't need to try to follow my concept of society's rules for parenting.  Instead, sometimes I needed to show her the grace that Jesus has shown me.  

[Old Jerry]

Does Jesus speak against fasting in this passage? What does he teach about fasting, if anything, in this passage?

 

A. Jesus is teaching that we should fast but that there is a time to fast.

 

What are the structures in our lives and society that are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives?

 

A. I think that almost all structures in my life and in society are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives. It seem like every day there is something new that is against the Life of the Spirit that is why I stay close to Church so I have someone I can trust to bounce off the new information that I have received.

[Bailey]

Bailey Greetings, 4/13/21         Does Jesus speak against fasting?  No, there is a time and place for everything, and who expect someone to fast at a wedding? Jesus teaches just that, don't put on a show and I am sure no one would have joined in that fast.  Also, no one is to know when you are fasting anyway.  Your reason and purpose is between you and the Lord.

[Nandita]

3. Please share a struggle you had with trying to contain the Life of Christ in an "old wineskin"? Some of your brothers and sisters may understand the concept better if you'll share personally in your discussion group.

Trying to understand the New Testament message of Heaven, hell, Salvation, and Condemnation through the lens of the Old Testament was a huge struggle for me. I couldn't understand why good people would go to hell just because they didn't believe in Jesus--after all they're good people aren't they? It felt cruel for God to reject them just for that one lapse. My inability to understand this significantly weakened my faith at one point.

 

But the New Testament stresses the fact that it is our place in God's family that saves us--not our deeds. God forgives his children unconditionally just as any good father would. And our faith in him is how we accept his offer to become his children.

 

In short: Jesus' message of Salvation only made sense through the New Testament viewpoint that emphasizes faith--not the Old Testament teachings that emphasize deeds. Finally understanding that strengthened my faith.

 

Thank you Jesus for that understanding!

[Nana Karlsson]

Jesus did not speak against fasting in this passage. The point Jesus was making was that it was not necessary for his disciples to fast   as long as he was here with them on earth. Jesus said" but the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, in those days they will fast.( Luke 5:35) Jesus was refering to his crucifixion and death when he said this.

 

[Godswriter]

1.    Does Jesus speak against fasting in this passage? What does he teach about fasting, if anything, in this passage? No what He actually is saying is that fasting is a practice to be done that has a specifice time and purpose and for a specific reason as well. It means that we do it in the privacy of our homes so our Lord knows we are doing it for Him.

2.    What are the structures in our lives and society that are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives? Career, education, finances, legalism, religion, materialism, just about anything can take the place of the Lord's throne on our heart. 

3.    Please share a struggle you had with trying to contain the Life of Christ in an "old wineskin"? I believe for me it dealt with the tabernacle and how it corresponds with Christ and all the offerings they had to make. 

[Zac Chacko]

Dear pastor Ralph,

That was a wonderful reflection on the wine in the wineskins. May we indeed find the joy and life that comes from living with the Lord, day to day, doing justice, loving mercy and walking humbly with him. God bless.

Zac

[Kevin F]

1. Does Jesus speak against fasting in this passage? What does he teach about fasting, if anything, in this passage?

           -- He doesnt speak against fasting. Jesus is making a point for the Pharisees and his followers that He is going to do things differently. His teachings are different than the Pharisee rules, His purpose is different. You dont have to follow the traditional legalistic/harsh rules that the Pharisees taught because thats not how Jesus wants to do things. So I think He is using fasting to show that His followers dont have to conform to any rules while He is with them. Eventually, when He is gone, they will go back to fasting in order to be close to Jesus. Thats the whole point of fasting also, to be close to God and rely on Him. Not to follow strict rules, every Mon and Thurs, like Pharisees. Jesus is getting at the heart of the Pharisees teaching, and implying that He is God, so his followers dont need to fast to be close to Him while he is already so close to them. 

2. What are the structures in our lives and society that are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives?

        --  Rules, fitting in, we make time to pray and read, which "wastes time" in others eyes. (Could be doing something for your career, hobby, etc). 

3. Please share a struggle you had with trying to contain the Life of Christ in an "old wineskin"? Some of your brothers and sisters may understand the concept better if you'll share personally in your discussion group.

       --  Praying, seeking, reading everyday, but not giving up control and trying to do things my way. Essentially asking God to help me, but when push comes to shove, I back away and am not willing to do what I feel God is calling me to do. 

[pickledilly]

1. Does Jesus speak against fasting in this passage? What does he teach about fasting, if anything, in this passage?

In responding to the legalistic criticism about the lack of pious public fasting noticed in Him and His disciples, Jesus spoke about fasting, not to condemn or forbid it but to relate a new perspective. For their unparalleled moment in time, celebrating the presence of the Bridegroom was infinitely more important than their ritual of fasting. At the heart of His challenge to them was the motive for fasting, the reason for the practice. It had been turned into a hypocritical demonstration of just how “holier-than-thou” a person was. For most people (and certainly a large number of scribes and Pharisees) it was only an outward practice that had no spiritual meaning, just another law that must be kept in order to be in line with the Jewish concepts of outward obedience to Yahweh’s legal requirements. But the old-wine concept of self-effort in obeying rules could never fit with the new-wine application of obedience to God’s law through the leading and power of the Spirit. Jesus was challenging their blindness to the spiritual meaning of fasting - the humbling of self and setting aside natural desires in order to deeply seek His presence, to more clearly “see” God and what He’s doing, to hear His voice and where He's leading. The new wine of the Spirit that was soon coming to be poured into every believer could never be contained or properly developed in the old rigid wineskin of law-keeping.

[pickledilly]

2. What are the structures in our lives and society that are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives?

I'll just address the number one thing that comes to mind for me.  It is simply our human nature that thinks it knows best and wants to be in control. People are generally very independent-minded and have an innate desire to be self-sufficient -- which is the exact opposite of the humility and recognition of our complete inability to please God apart from dependence on the Spirit’s leading that is required of a follower of Christ.  That sets up the lifelong battle between flesh and spirit that Paul spoke so honestly about in Galatians.  Then come the earthly pressures, parameters, and variety of factors others have mentioned here.

[Lottie]

1.Does Jesus speak against fasting in this passage? What does he teach about fasting, if anything, in this passage? No He is not against fasting but fasting the wrong way. He teaches that one cannot fast as long as the bridegroom is still around, or His disciples cannot fast as long as He is still with Him. That there will come a time when He is no longer there and then they will fast.

2.What are the structures in our lives and society that are incompatible with the Life of the Spirit in our lives? Some of the structures are shopping on the Lord's Day or going to games. Gambling and getting drunk, being promiscuous and going to bars like other people do. Or trying to stay away from meat or eating only food the Jews were allowed to eat. 

3.Please share a struggle you had with trying to contain the Life of Christ in an "old wineskin"? Some of your brothers and sisters may understand the concept better if you'll share personally in your discussion group. I had to come to the understanding that I was an addict. I spent too much time playing games on the computer. Too much time trying to win money from different sites. I was also an alcoholic and had problems with sex and fantasies and eating too much. All this took the place of God in my life before. When I entered Christian Overeaters Anonymous things started changing. He showed me what I needed to do; that these had to go. I am still a work in progress yet, with rough edges.