Pastor Ralph Posted January 17, 2003 Report Share Posted January 17, 2003 Can a person be a "disobedient disciple"? Doesn't that represent an oxymoron? Did Gideon have a choice here? Do we have choices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 Can a person be a "disobedient disciple"? Doesn't that represent an oxymoron? Did Gideon have a choice here? Do we have choices? Yes I do feel that a person can be a "disobedient disciple" for the mere reason that we are all human and the fact that we were all born sinners. We may for the majority of the time follow Christ and obey all that He requires of us but there are times that we ALL choose to do things our way rather than God's way. For most of us this is only a temporary situation and we soon realise that our way is not best and this failure to comply with God's wishes in no way makes us less a disciple. God knows that all through our Christian life there will be times when we will ignore his will and go our own way but he doesn't love us any the less for it. Just as we as parents will have "disobedient children", God will have "disobedient disciples". In both cases guidance is needed and through the power of the Holy Spirit within us God will discipline us and point us in the right direction. Initially yes Gideon did have a choice as we have all been given the freedom to choose in our life. At no time did God physically force Gideon to do His will and the final decision to go ahead and destroy Baal's altar and the Asherah pole , regardless of the risk, was Gideon's. One factor I feel that led to this decision was the fact that he had experienced God's presence prior to this and promised to be with him always. We also do have the same choices as to whether to follow our own ways or whether to follow God's ways. God would rather us turn to Him willingly than be forced to against our will. At the end of the day we are either for or against God in our every day life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Angel Posted January 18, 2003 Report Share Posted January 18, 2003 I think that we have the choice to be obedient disciples, now do we choose to be or not? I think that many times our flesh make the decisions for ourselves. I think that we should take control of our actions, I think that we must strive for being obedient disciples and no disobedient ones, of course we would fail, but we have God's grace to help us to get back in the right track. God knows our hearts and also He knows our strengths and weaknesses. I think that Gideon had only one choice and that was to obey God, if he disobeyed it would mean destruction not only for his family but for him also and his countrymen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peggie Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 Yes, we can be a disobedient disciple, for we have all sinned, but if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins! We are all still too human and the flesh often takes over and we do fall into sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KITTY MILLS Posted January 19, 2003 Report Share Posted January 19, 2003 We cannot be disobedient disciples. Jesus said in John 14:21a, "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me." and John 15:10 says, "If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love..". Gideon had a choice. We all have choices. God never makes us do anything. The doing flows out of our love for Jesus. Joshua told the people of Israel in 24:15, "But is serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will serve...". We must do likewise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gail m Posted January 20, 2003 Report Share Posted January 20, 2003 "Can a person be a disobediant disciple?" Yes..should we? No, but if we were perfect then there would have been no need for Jesus Christ to have been sacrificed for us. Being human is being imperfect, so we can follow God and listen, but in our humanity we make mistakes..some unknown, some intentional..but we can still be disciples of God. We can still love the Lord with a passion..We are just not capable of perfection..so are we truely ever obediant to God? Gideon had a choice...he could have chosen to not hear God..like many of us do at times in our lives. We all have choices. We can decide to hear God or not..we can decide to try to follow the path he chooses for us..etc.....Lots of choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dickinson Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 An 'Oxymoron'? I hope it's not contagious, after all, I am a disciple and I also admit that at times I am disobedient! Hmm . . . Your silent reply is so loud I can't hear a thing Seriously, of course Gideon had the choice to obey God or to pledge his allegiance to his father and the community. Just as Joshua before him gave the people of Israel the ultimatum "Choose for yourselves whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:15). Gideon made the wisest decision. As Christian disciples we don't always prove our complete allegiance to God, especially when difficult decisions are required of us involving our family or loved ones. Being an obedient Christian within one's own family must be the hardest obstacle to overcome. They do after all know us better than most, warts and all. Even Jesus said "Only in his home town and in his own house is a prophet without honour" (Matthew 13:57) However we may take great assurance from Jesus' promise that those who do forsake ALL in favour of the Gospel will be rewarded a hundred fold (Mark 10:29) Peter didn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelda huffman Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Even though we love Christ, if we don't do ask he ask of us aren't we being a disobiedient disciple? Thus my answer is yes we can be disobiedient but our Heavenly Father forgives us if we just pray and ask it of him. We all have choices but sometimes we don't make the right choices because we are only human. God knows the choices we are going to make before we make them, I believe He lets us make them so we can grow with him and learn from the mistakes we make and become close to him. So Gideon made the right choice to do as God told him and God protected him. In God We Trust and as long as we place our trust in him and do as he ask, He will be with us and protect us always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desiree Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 I would tend to agree that at times we can become "disobedient disciples". Since this whole lesson centers around idol worship... at times we find ourselves following the way of man rather than the way of God (idol worship). Perhaps we tend to want to be accepted by people in the world rather than accepted into the beloved, the family of God. The fear of man and what man may think may sometimes cause us to allow our natural (carnal) nature to surface. Our Spirit and flesh are constantly at war with one another and this battle we must continue as we work our our salvation with fear and trembling... it is a process. We have choices in this life and each day we arise we can determine to be an "obedient or "disobedient disciple". I choose this day to serve the Lord... no matter what the cost. Gideon had choices just as we do... he chose to honor the Lord and serve Him.... good choice don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darleen Nelson Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Sometimes a leader does not make wise choices and even though we agree with their basic beliefs we may take a stand against the way they are attempting to reach solutions. We can then disagree with the action suggested while still agreeing on the basic belief. Many who believe that Iraq is wrong to refust to disclose their possession of nuclear weapons do not agree with going to war against them with all it entails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Spaulding Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Unfortunately, we all sin. A disobedient disciple is a disciple who lets a sinful thought come to fruition, and we sin--which is disobedience to God. Did Gideon have a choice? Yes, he could have done as God directed him without a murmur, but what about his family? Would they suffer for his decision to obey? I think that is the real reason he tore down the idols, etc. at night. he wanted to obey God, but didn't want to involve his family--whether he was thinking they would forbid him, or whether he was thinking of them suffering for his action. Do we have decisions to make? Every day. And often I--as well as every other disciple--make the wrong one, and need to come to the Savior--again--for His forgiveness. I'm glad He understands that though our spirits desire to follow Him totally, our flesh is weak. Would that it were not so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia A. Conti Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 This is an interesting question. First off, if you are a disciple, that means you are a follower. You will be following what your told to do. So a disobedient disciple doesn't seem to ring true. However, many a disciple has been led astray for a time by not being strong in their faith. At that time you are not acting as a disciple. However, when you realize the error of your ways and return to God, you exercise your discipleship again. It's kind of like being part of a family. Sometimes, like the prodigal son, you might go away and reject all that you have been shown and all that your family holds dear. However, you are still a part of that family. You just are not actively part of the family. And, if you return to the fold, as the prodigal son did, you are welcomed back into the bosom of the family once more. Gideon had a choice to either follow God's command or not to follow God's command. We have that same choice everyday. God wants us to follow him freely. He will not force us. He has given us freewill. We must choose to follow. He wants willing, loving disciples. I know for myself, I must make that choice for myself everyday. There's a lot out here in the world that would try to draw me away from God. It is a choice everyday what I give my loyalty and love to. I choose God. There are times when I might be led astray without really realizing that is happening. It is important to pray for wisdom in my choices. Then, when I find I'm straying, I can renounce whatever it is that has drawn me away, and return to the God that loves me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Phelps Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 "disobedient disciple" is not an oxymoron. All of God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Is it possible for one of my four children (or all of them on the really good days ) to be disobedient, yet for me to still love them and consider them my child? YES! Or, is it possible for the soldier to disobey his commanding officer and still be a soldier? Well, maybe that was a poor analogy...because that depends on the infraction! God will use us as disciples when we allow Him to, when we allow (sometimes, force) ourselves to be in His will. Being sovereign and omniscent, He knows all things, past, present and future. He knows if we will serve Him, and to what length we will go. I believe He gives us that opportunity, even though He knows what the outcome will be, good or bad. He opens those doors for us to have those learning experiences, to take those baby steps, as Gideon did when he tore down the altar at night. If we fail to choose the path He opens to us, then He will choose another to go down that path. That doesn't mean He no longer loves us, or that we are no longer His disciple. It just means that He will give us the time we think we need, and perhaps some valuable discipline, and give us the chance the next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Anderson Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Q3. Can a person be a "disobedient disciple"? Doesn't that represent an oxymoron? Did Gideon have a choice here? Do we have choices? Well, it depends on how fine you want to split the hair here . According to the dictionary, the # 1 definition of a disciple is any professed follower of Christ in His lifetime, esp. one of the 12 apostles. It takes but one look at our beloved Peter to answer the above question, yes? Forget "oxymorons"...no problems with seeming contradictions. And choices are something lots of people forget they have. Always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DebChats Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Yes, one can be a disobedient disciple. We have to choose our battles everyday and somewhere we will not being doing as God told us. The love of God does change us and that certainly is the good news. God sees us as disciples long before we see ourselves as disciples. I do not think it is an oxymoron though it sounds like one. Disobedience will have it's consequences. Gideon had a choice, as we all do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Maher Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Can a person be a "disobedient disciple"? Good question. As I was pondering this question, I thought it would help to have a definition of disciple, which is: DISCIPLE. This term occurs in the OT as the rendering of Heb. limmud, one "instructed," Isa 8:16; 50:4; rendered "taught" in 54:13. In the NT it is the rendering of the Grk. mathetes, "learner," and occurs frequently. The meaning applies to one who professes to have learned certain principles from another and maintains them on that other's authority. It is applied principally to the followers of Jesus (Matt 5:1; 8:21; etc.); sometimes to those of John the Baptist (9:14) and of the Pharisees (22:16). It is used in a special manner to indicate the twelve (10:1; 11:1; 20:17). (from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright © 1988.) Based on the above definition, I think it is possible to be a "disobedient disciple." I know, for myself, I want to be an obedient disciple of Jesus, but there are times, all too often, where I, in my human nature, fall short and I end up in disobedience or sin. Through God's grace, I have also learned lessons that help me be more obedient in the future. I do not suggest that we be disobedient in order to learn obedience, because there is a cost to the disobedience. I thank the Lord for the precious gift of His Son, Jesus and the forgivness of my sin, thank you Lord, Amen. Rom 6:19-23 19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (from New International Version) Doesn't that represent an oxymoron? Yes and no. I believe that disobedience is part of our human condition. We are not perfect in ourselves. We are perfected through Jesus. On the other hand, if we willfully chose to be disobedient, are we able to be a disciple, based on the above definition? Probably not because we are not maintaining the principles that we learned. Did Gideon have a choice here? Yes. He could have chosen not to act for personal safety or other reasons. He could have put his family or community before the Lord. He chose to follow God. Do we have choices? Yes, we have choices, many each day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marjorie Knight Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 yes and no. We can choose to obey God. Lots of the disciples and people in the old testament etc, disobeyed God at some point like we do. But, it is if we continue not to obey God we cannot remain deisiples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leo Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Yes, unfortunately, we can become disobedient disciples. We must admit that at some point in our lives, we have been disobedient somehow. And sometimes it doesn't take too much temptation to get us going. So there's no oxymoron here. In a utopic setting, a disobedient disciple, should be non-existent but since we are facing reality here, we've also got to face the fact that we do sin once in a while. But we do have a choice. Even the mistakes and sins that we have committed are all about making choices. Gideon could have opted not to tear down the altars without his father's permission or he could have tried to convince his father to worship the Lord in the hope that his father will tear down the altars himself, he could even have opted not to do it at all...he could have done lots of things. And we could only guess what would've happened if he did. But in the end, Gideon chose to serve the Lord. And that's all that we need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Q3. Can a person be a "disobedient disciple"? Doesn't that represent an oxymoron? Did Gideon have a choice here? Do we have choices? In the sense that we are human, and suffering from the same disease (sin) then yes, we can be "disobedient disciples." However, and this is where the "hair splitting" comes in, if you are actively and deliberately disobeying his will, then I would say you are not a disciple. You have "chosen" another path (another God?). Yes, we have choices, and our choices are quite often manifestations of just how good we are as disciples. I often wrestle with the issue of what exactly his plan is for me. That is even more apparent as I write this from Bagram, Afghanistan. But I have found that if we continue to pray for his guidance, constantly look for his path (and don't stress about the whole thing, just wade into the water and let it take you downstream) then it is more often than not, revealed. Father I long to be an obedient disciple. Guide me. Enlighten me. Mark your path for me. Highlight the forks in the road and stear me in direction you have scripted for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBORAH Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 WE ARE ALL DISCIPLES OF OUR LORD AND BECAUSE OF THE ORGINAL SIN BROUGHT ON TO THE EARTH, WE FALL INTO DISOBEDIENCE GUITE NATURALLY, AS THE CHANGE OF SEASONS. IT IS HOW WE LEARN AS SINNERS, TO BECOME BETTER DESCIPLES LIKE GIDEON. THE CLOSER TO GOD WE BECOME IN OUR DAILY LIVES THE RIGHT CHOICES WE MAKE, AND IT BECOMES A NATURAL PROCESS,TO SERVE OBEDIENTLY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johncuse Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Q3. Can a person be a "disobedient disciple"? Doesn't that represent an oxymoron? Did Gideon have a choice here? Do we have choices? Yes, we can be disobedient and a disciple. Even a law bidding citzen runs a yellow light or does not stop all the way at a stop sign. Gideon had a choice , he could have followed the crowd and been content ot worship idols. In Christ Jesus, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photobug Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 We have chouces to follow Christ or not to follow him Gidden listen to the voice of god and did what he was asked to do .We have the same choice to follow Christ or not to.When we dont follow Christ we get into trouble then we have to ask forgivens forvour disobence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gilbert Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Having waited to post my answer, I had the benefit of reading some of the other postings. Most of our fellow students here are tracking with my thoughts. I think it best to look at disciple as one thing. It was pointed out by someone on the forum that the meaning is to be instructed, to be a learner (i.e. student). Disobedient...well, we all at times disobey and there as many reasons (excuses) as instances of disobedience. Thank goodness our God is merciful and forgiving. What struck me from this is that if we do disobey in life we typically get more chances to obey. Naturally, that doesn't continue forever...best to choose to obey before we die. So, not an oxymoron. Yes, Gideon had a choice, and so do we. What's important as Christians is to follow Jesus and his teachings and if we do that we will more often be aware of that choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripofhisgrace Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Did not Elisha head for the hills running for his life from Jezebel ? Did not Abraham detour to Egypt during the famine ? Did not Jonah flea in the opposite direction God told him too ? God chose human disciples and unfortunately, obeying our natural instincts, comes automatically. The art of discipleship is to reign in those natural instincts and rely on the Lord. I strongly feel that our journey is never complete, we can never be the perfect Christian or perfect disciple on this earth. susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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