Q29. Unshrunk Cloth and Wineskins

[Pastor Ralph]

Q29. (Luke 5:36-39) What did Jesus intend his disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins? Why are we tempted to say, “The old wine is better?” How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day? How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches?

[Robomom3]

Q29. (Luke 5:36-39)

What did Jesus intend his disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins?

Do not look back... you have been set free from the condemnation that comes from the Law.  If you try to go back to the old... you will be destroyed. Embrace the new because with it you will have room to expand and grow.

Galatians 3:10 Those who depend on obeying the Law live under a curse.  For the Scripture says, "Whoever does not always obey everything that is written in the book of the Law is under God's Curse!" 

Why are we tempted to say, “The old wine is better?”

Nobody likes change... the unknown feels risky... we may not like where we are, but at least we know what to expect.  Or sometimes, we feel like we have mastered our old wine and we don't want to have to learn something new that takes more effort... or a different kind of effort... and, what if we aren't as good at the new as we are at the old? We often feel it's just not worth the risk.

How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day?

The word "tradition" says it all... "it's the way we have always done it"... I think some churches tend to believe that when we say, "God is the same yesterday, today and for eternity" it means He is only capable of doing things one set way.  They forget we serve the CREATOR of the universe... He is CREATIVE! And creativity never stops creating.  We should never get so set in our traditions (things set in place by man) that we no longer allow the Holy Spirit the freedom to move in new ways in order for His church to reach a new generation in this lost world. The only thing that should never change is our message... God's Word is final, and we stand on it without compromise.  

How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches?

I really never thought of these parables in the context of new church plants.  I always saw them as a warning to not get tangled back up in the Law. New church plants are exciting and definitely reach many people but... if the churches already in existence would choose to be Holy Spirit led churches who follow God in obedience instead of churches who build programs to serve those inside the church without any thought of the outside world except on Christmas and Easter then we would have no need for a church on every corner, which is what we have where I live.  If there is a church on every corner and only 20% of the population attends church... what are the churches doing?  I would have to venture to say, they have become very comfortable in their wineskins and are no longer able to expand.  

[GeraldG]

The parables of the unsrunk cloth and the wineskins is to help His disciples to understand that you can't mix old religion with the new walk with Christ. For if you try and do this they will both fail. 

We are tempted to say that the old is better because its been around a long time, its smooth and has the hardships out of it, its comfortable. But the new is uncertain, its a step of faith, not by sight, and it has many oppositions. 

Church traditions, and religions do limit the Holy Spirits work because it wants the same old order, it won't allow anything new to come in.

We may never reach those out in the world who are lost and dying and fearful of the old way. Therefore we need something new to come forth and reach the people out there who are looking for something more. 

[hanks]

Q29. (Luke 5:36-39)

What did Jesus intend His disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins? Why are we tempted to say, "The old wine is better?" How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day? How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches?

Jesus is telling us that one cannot mix an old garment of self-righteousness and works with a new garment of forgiveness of sins, grace, and mercy. In the same way as old and new wineskins don’t mix. Mixing law and grace would result in a patched-up Christianity, which is not part of God’s plan. A fresh start was needed. Jesus came to fulfil the old covenant and bring in the new. If we are in our comfort zone it’s easier to think that the old is better. So, we reject the new, fresh teachings of Jesus. Most people are happy with their lives as they are - never seriously thinking of eternity. Not realizing that salvation involves radical transformation of heart, soul, and body, and a large change in lifestyle. For this to happen requires putting their faith in Christ and a re-birth which might not occur if church traditions limit the work of the Holy Spirit - blinding them to the need of a Saviour. In the same way, we must be careful not to become too rigid in our thinking like the Pharisees who stuck to their traditions and rules; not accepting our Lord Jesus as the Messiah. If we are not careful, we can easily find ourselves set in our ways, comfortable as things are, and opposed to change; all this preventing us from considering the planting of new churches.  

[Debra Grant]

Q29. (Luke 5:36-39) What did Jesus intend his disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins? Why are we tempted to say, “The old wine is better?” How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day? How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches?

1. Jesus is saying to bring new life with the old life will not work or look right. I will bring disaster, destruction, and a complete failure. Pouring new wine into old lifestyle will not work because it will be a failure. Two different lifestyles will not work.

2. Old wine is better because it has been fermented and mellowed which has made us free. We must not become entangled with legalistic religion because it is manmade trying to set-off as Christianity (new wine). 

3. A church limits the Holy Spirit's work by legalistic religion. As Christians we are to be guided by God. When we do something because of others saying to do it can cause stress and hardship because it is not in our heart.

4. Christians should be able to expand according to God's will. Following after legalistic religion will cause failure, destruction, and pain.  

[RD35]

What did Jesus intend his disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins? Why are we tempted to say, "The old wine is better?" How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day? How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches?

Jesus intends to teach his disciples that his coming Kingdom is different than what people expect. It doesn't follow the old tried-and-true traditions. It is new and exclusive and must not be considered the same as the past. 

We can be tempted to say the old wine is better because it is easier to fall back to what is familiar and comfortable, rather than launch out into a life guided not by laws and regulations, but led by the Voice of the Spirit of God. The two are opposites, the old and the new. 

Church Traditions, Legalism and External Faith do not let the Holy Spirit to an internal work in the believers life.  We will end up only following a religion and people pleasers than have a relationship with Christ.

[Lisa Wolf]

Q29. (Luke 5:36-39) What did Jesus intend his disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins? Why are we tempted to say, “The old wine is better?” How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day? How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches? 

Jesus used the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins to teach His disciples about the nature of change.  He pointed out that the new is always necessary as we seek to share the Kingdom and produce new wine in people.  Eventually that new wine mellows, but initially a new wineskin is required.  People who seek after the mellow wine in church traditions, miss the daily NEW work of the Holy Spirit.  If there is to be new wine, a new wineskin is required...which is the same in our churches.  May we always notice the new and creative ways God draws people to Himself.

[Niyonka16]

Q29.The Parable of New Wine and Old Wineskins (Luke 5:36-39)

What did Jesus intend His disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins?

ANSWER: Jesus was trying to tell believers that if we want to follow His teachings, we can’t be like that old piece of clothing. We can’t put Jesus’ new teaching on our old selves because it won’t work. If we want to follow Jesus’ teaching, we have to become new through Him. The old clothing, our sinful, selfish life, cannot be mended but must be replaced. We must seek to be new through Jesus and be an outward example of how we can be transformed through His grace and mercy. The point of the parable is that the message, method and messenger must fit the Messiah.

Why are we tempted to say, "The old wine is better?"

ANSWER: We so easily allow the traditions of those around us, and even our own preferences, to dictate to us the terms of engagement rather than the Lord.  Similar to those around Jesus who kept on wanting to make Him fit their traditions, so does some of us today attempt to do the same as the disciples.

How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day?

ANSWER: Being consumed with our own self-righteousness can limit the Holy Spirit’s work. This narcissistic behavior causes us to resist what the Spirit of God is trying to do and impede the work of the Spirit.

How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches?

ANSWER: The mustard seed is quite small, but it grows into a large shrub (up to ten feet in height) and Jesus says this is a picture of kingdom growth. The point of the Parable of the Mustard Seed is that something big and blessed (the kingdom of God) had humble beginnings. The parable foretells the growth of Christ’s kingdom from very small beginnings to a sizable, sheltering place. Jesus’ emphasis is on the change of size, from small to large, and the surprising nature of the growth. In spite of persecution and repeated attempts to stamp it out, the church has flourished. And it’s only a small picture of the ultimate manifestation of the kingdom of God, when Jesus returns to earth to rule and reign from Zion. We should want to continually plant churches because we need to renew the whole body of Christ.

[Zanele Tlhakanelo]

Jesus Christ intends teaching His disciples that the unshrunk clothes or the old wine skin do not fit into the new, meaning that the laws taught back then do not fit into the Good News/Gospel because there are certain laws that repel Jesus' teachings. Remember that nothing was to be done on the Sabbath and Jesus' healing of the sick offended the Pharisees and scribes. Therefore, the disciples needed to understand that people's lives are more important than the laws.

We become used to old traditions and do not want to repent from believing that Jesus Christ has not only come for the chosen few but Gentiles as well hence it was difficult for Peter to be seen to be sharing food with the Gentiles. Keeping the synagogue traditions was to them the inheritance of the Kingdom of God.

We want to do things by the book and not allow the Holy Spirit to take control. We follow the same ways of doing things instead of allowing the presence of the Holy Spirit to lead us. We follow the same pattern each time for example, we worship/ praise, read the Word and preach, pray and we are out of the church building. I do not think the Holy Spririt will be offended if He directs that only praise and worship should be done and pray and lead people to receive Christ as their Lord and Savior.

If we continue to be stuck in church laws, there will not be any growth in the Kingdom of God. We need to allow the presence of the Holy Spirit to manifest for growth to be seen. The church may start small but once the Holy Spirit is given His place, there will be growth them. Churches need to know that they are not in any competition but are doing the Will of God and that is, preaching the Good News/Gospel.

[Krissi]

There seems to be a human tendency to go in one of two extremes: first, to be legalistic, rigid and judgmental; second, to throw away all custom and wisdom of the past. The first is to cling to the past; the second is to immanetize the future.

At every time of history, one chooses a place on the continuum between clinging the the past and jettisoning it. God has a right place. Sometimes, as during the reformation, getting rid of the past is what He commanded -- other times, the church is on autopilot waiting for His commands. It's all right.

[Nicolaas A.P. Mostert]

Q29. (Luke 5:36-39)

What did Jesus intend his disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins?

You can't mix the two, because both will be destroyed.

Why are we tempted to say, "The old wine is better?"

People tend to grasp the old, the known, the comfort zone so that is the easiest way of choosing things.

How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day?

when they cleanse to the old way of doing things, when they don't let go with the old. 

How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches?

New wine still have to mature in the new wine skin, so the new church has 100% change to successful maturity in CHRIST JESUS.

The newly planted church can only flourish. 

[Elizabeth Kuruvilla]

The new wine represents the new covenant of grace, while the old wineskin represents the old covenant of law.

Old wineskins are brittle, hard, and inflexible. That’s the law. It is inflexible. And when you pour the new wine of grace into the old wineskin of the law, you will lose both because the wineskin will be ruined and the wine will be spilled. The virtues of both the old and the new covenants will be cancelled out and lost.

 The phrase "The old wine is better" reflects the human tendency to cling to familiar traditions and resist change. People often prefer the comfort of what they know, even if it hinders the work of the Holy Spirit.

When traditions become more important than the Gospel message itself, they can impede the growth and the Move of the Holyspirit.

[haar]

 

A29

 

The parable of the new wine in a new wine skin is confusing to me as it would suggest that new ideas and teachings of Jesus would only be targeted to the Jews and not the Gentiles.

I would thought that  I think Jesus parables using the old and new wine skin etc were to teach the Pharisees, his disciples and this present generation that new wine put in a new wine skin leads to destruction of the wine skin (and also the lost to the wine). Therefore new wine should only be put in old hardened skin. Thus with the new message of salvation through faith in Jesus only, the Pharisees (and everyone has to abandon old traditions about salvation through works and look unto only Jesus Christ for salvation by faith) 

However, Pastor Ralph’s remarks bellow gives a suggested meaning of the Lord Jesus teaching on the subject as follows:

“Immediately, following Jesus' Parable of the Bridegroom's Guests, Jesus gives a pair of parables to explain that his coming Kingdom is different than what people expect. It doesn't follow the old tried-and-true traditions. It is new and exclusive and must not be considered the same as the past. These are the Parable of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Parable of the Wineskins”

[Irmela]

Q29. (Luke 5:36-39)

What did Jesus intend his disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins?

Why are we tempted to say, "The old wine is better?"

How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day?

How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches?

Jesus came to give us the "new wine" of the Gospel.  This new wine is to be placed in the new wineskin of GRACE, not in the old one of LAW. 

We are used to the old and can logically see that  if the Law is not broken, it works.  But we are not perfect and do sin, so we need the new.  We see that the Law shows or portrays our wickedness, our shortfalls.  Never can we be saved by the Law.  Works fail us.

Traditions are not flexible.  It is the same old all the time.  The Holy Spirit does not act robotic.  When someone is touched in a meeting and tears just flow and flow or someone is moved to confess a sin (repent) or someone from the street (a tramp who reeks of goodness knows what) comes in to attend the meeting,  we are very apt to stop or watch sharply and try to stop the extra ordinary works going on.  This is trying to limit the Spirit to what we seem to think as being proper.  It limits the Holy Spirit's work, by stopping His free flowing, as He sees fit.

It's hard to change the old.  Not necessarily that the people are against tramps coming to salvation.  Almost as if they expect them to be "cleaned" up first, before they come to church.  The new churches are almost sooner geared to accept the "obvious sinner" , and are aiming for just that, whereas the more traditional ones, make one be almost too scared to breathe in, in case you breathe wrong.  
(Maybe it's just me that feels like that.  Please forgive me if I have offended anyone, I didn't mean to)

[Sister Evelyn]

Q. 29 (Luke 5:36-39) The point of the unshrunk cloth-both parables point to the impossibility of mixing old and new. Jesus also states that to try to attach the new to the old will not go together and it will eventually tear again. Also, the point of these two metaphors is that one cannot mix the old and the new covenant. We can not mix the Old Laws ( which many were man made laws) with the New Law in which it is now the Law of Grace through Jesus Christ. 

People are tempted to say that the old wine is better, because it is easier to fall back (Old legalistic rules) to what is familiar, and comfortable rather than (following Jesus) launching out into a life guided not by laws and regulations. A true relationship with God.

Many church traditions limit the Holy Spirit by not following the prompt of the Holy Spirit. And again because of their traditions. Some churches depending will limit the work of the Holy Spirit by not feeling the His presence either mot preaching the Word of God, not allowing someone speak in tongues. Jesus came to fulfilled the  Law and he makes it clear in the Sermon on the Mount. We no longer live under the Law following men tradition. We live by Grace and the need for newly planted church who will peach the Truth of the Word. not the water down Gospel many are preaching in today's society. We need to bring people to Christ not to let them go astray with man traditions.

[Janzie]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:32 PM, Pastor Ralph said:

Q29. (Luke 5:36-39) What did Jesus intend his disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins? Why are we tempted to say, “The old wine is better?” How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day? How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches?

That you can't put new wine in old wine skins because when you do that the old will burst.  When you try to patch an old garment you can't use unshrunk cloth because it will tear and make it worse.  In the spiritual realm the saying comes to mind - "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"  People are used to the old way of doing things and they will not change unless they have an open heart to receive a new word which can give them freedom.  

In the case of wine, people say the old wine is better because it is mellow.  People are used to the old way of doing things, they feel more comfortable and do not like change.

Our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our, day because people like the old way and their traditions and are not about to change and are not open to what the Lord is really saying.  When you get serious with  God and really need Him,  he hears your cry and brings truth to you where you can't refuse and makes you open to what He is doing today and reveals the truth about your old traditions. 

It is easier in a newly planted church, because preaching the Gospel to new Christians they are open and receive the Word. They they don't have a lot of baggage from other churches and when they hear the truth they receive it.  

 

[George L]

Q29. (Luke 5:36-39) What did Jesus intend his disciples to learn from the Parables of the Unshrunk Cloth and the Wineskins? The world shall wax old as a garment. Putting a new clothbpatch on an old grament becomes a greater rent. There is no new so,ution to the troubles if the world. The eorld will not become eden like. We are here to salvage the lost, not attempt to patch the old. Or misuse the container. The old person or the new each has its purpose and its proper filling.

Why are we tempted to say, "The old wine is better?" What we already know reqires no work or additional study. We tend to be generally lazy and grab a ready generic answer.

How might our church traditions limit the Holy Spirit's work in our day? Traditions are like data spreadsheets. Incapable of predicting the future. They are gatherd history therefor being in the middle ofvthe data is comforting. Christ said this world is going away it will be a new day. We must change from caretaker church to harvester church.

How do these parables illustrate the need for newly planted churches? No, not well as just new is too limiting. More that new days require properly matched new ways. So not only the new church subject, but the fact that the very organization of church must be ready for a huge change of scale. Think, grasp, take hold of the 12 became thousands within 50 days in Acts. The pastors Leaders conference this past weekend had an evangalist from Nigeria speak. Revival meetings of thousands. One meeting filled a 3.5 mile square property more than a million came. There are 1.38 Billion Chinese, 1.4 Billion In India. We must plant for capacity, evangalism, and mentoring on a massive scale and think explosion of expansion to happen quickly. They teach us the need is for new approach, new vision, new plans. It is the new day dawning.

[Old Jerry]

Jesus intended his disciples to learn that He was teaching something new and it wasn’t going to fit into the old traditions. We are tempted to say “that the old wine is better” because it is what we are use to and we don’t want to go to something new. I’m sure that there are some church traditions that limit the Holy Spirit’s work, but I have fallen into those traditions and I can’t see them. I can see if there is something new that a newly planted church would be a better choice.