Pastor Ralph Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 Q5. (Judges 8:18-21) Why does Gideon slay Zebah and Zalmunna? Is he unjust or fulfilling his just obligation? (Numbers 35:16) Why does Romans 12:19 prohibit Christians from taking vengeance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario Angel Posted February 1, 2003 Report Share Posted February 1, 2003 Gideon slained Zebah and Zalmunna because these two king had killed some of Gideon own brothers in the past. "According to the standards of the time, Gideon has a family obligation to exact vengeance for his brothers' unjust deaths. We cannot fault him for this, though we can tremble at the anger that motivates this primitive justice." Romans 12:19 prohibit Christians from taking vengeance, because God's word says that "my is the vengeance says the Lord I will repay", I think that we should let down any thoughts about vengeance and let the Lord handle all our problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted February 1, 2003 Report Share Posted February 1, 2003 Question 5 Gideons reason for slaying Zebah and Zalmunna were to avenge the death of his family. We have to remember that these were different times to now and that a ruling at that time was that you could avenge the unjust killing of members of your family. In the light of this fact I feel that we should not be too hard on Gideon for his actions as he was only carrying out the actions he truly believed to be correct at that time. However we then go to Romans 12: 19 and we are categorically told that it is not our place to take vengeance and that any wrong doing should be left in the hands of the Lord to avenge and not our hands. On reflection I feel that it is so important that we do keep our anger and temper under control no matter how much we may be goaded - one good reason for this is that by our showing anger we are not showing the true character of the Lord to others and will be giving the wrong idea about how a Christian should live and behave - in effect we would condoning any sort of bad behaviour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omie Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 + Zebah and Zalmunna killed Gideon's brothers. He had shown great anger at them & punished them with whippings of desert thorns and briars before he killed them. At this point I wonder about Gideon's rational to beat them and then kill them. + Under the Mosaic Law Gideon was justified in killing them. I don't know if he had the right to ask his son to do the actual deed. + Christians are not under the Mosaic Law, but under grace. In Romans it is written that God alone can take vengence. It is difficult for us to live this, it is only with the help of my Lord can I do that. It becomes less difficult as the years pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peggie Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Gideon slayed Zibah and Zalmunna to avenge the deaths of his own brothers which was the way of doing things at the time. In reading over this lesson's scriptures, I would have not wanted to be on the receiving end of Gideon's wrath at the time! Later we are told that vengeance belongs to God and that He will repay evil. As hard as it is at times, if we don't give vengeance over to God, we run a high risk of not setting a Christ like example especially to the lost. Furthermore, it's outright disobedience to not do so. We have to watch our anger, giving it to God, even when it's justified, we cannot let it continue to build, adding fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darleen Nelson Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Gideon was traditionally bound to gain revenge for the death of his brothers. His anger and apparent pleasure in gaining this revenge is out of line with Jesus' teaching on vengeance belonging to the Lord but this was before Jesus' time when the traditions were much different. Gideon shows that in spite of his rapid advancement in God's service he was still a man bound by the impulses natural to man and by his long years of training in the Jewish tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photobug Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 Zebah and zalmunna killed Giddens brothers so he took revenge on them and beat them and killed them. We today have to be carfull of our anger and turn it iver to god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Spaulding Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 Gideon should not have done this. God says, "Vengence is Mine! Anyone who kills another is guilty of murder! " Granted, in Gideon's time, the rule was that if a family member was killed, it was okay to kill this murderer! But, Gideon had a lot to learn about God. God is the same today as He has always been, so I'm sure He did not mean for human beings to go about avenging others for even the killing of his family members! We are to let God take care of vengence. If we do not, we will reap the result of our disobedience! Helen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindy Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 In Psalms 83.9 Do to them as you did to the Midianites or as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the Kishon River. 10 They were destroyed at Endor, and their decaying corpses fertilized the soil. 11 Let their mighty nobles die as Oreb and Zeeb did. Let all their princes die like Zebah and Zalmunna, 12 for they said, "Let us seize for our own use these pasturelands of God!" 13 O my God, blow them away like whirling dust, like chaff before the wind! A school professor once told me "If it gets repeated, then it must be important." Psalms repeats this incident, so it must be important. Gideon's response was so right that God invites us to pray for a repetition of it anytime self centered people try to steal from God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lois Turley Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 Numbers 35:16 "`If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. (NIV) Here and in numerous places, the Bible teaches the death penalty. The Bible also teaches that vengeance belongs to the Lord. I don't believe we can make a distinction saying that was then, the Old Testament, and this is now, the New Testament. God's law and principles remain the same for all the ages: The person who murders shall be put to death. Vengeance belongs to God. The two teachings are not at odds. Justice can be done without vengeance. It is always a sin for a Christian to harbor vengeance in his heart. And the one that is hurt the most is the avenger himself. Bitterness, resentment and anger will steal our peace, our joy, and our testimony. It is not worth it. We need to give it to God and let him deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gilbert Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 Gideon slays Zebah and Zalmunna to exact veangance for their murdering of his brothers. In Old Testament times this was considered right and upholding both honor for your family and even carrying out a command from scripture. It's still distasteful, and especially so that he asked his son to do it (although this was supposedly an honor). We are taught the new way of love, even for our enemies and to not take veangance, but leave that to God. However, the world continues to teach otherwise and we are under immense pressure to demand justice when we are wronged, particularly when a loved one is murdered. By myself I am incapable of this love of enemies and not wanting veangance. Fortunately, Jesus shows us by His strong love to take the higher road and the Holy Spirit can provide the ability to let go of the hate and veangance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Williams Posted February 6, 2003 Report Share Posted February 6, 2003 WHY GIDEON SLAYED ZEBAH AND ZALMUNNA? He slayed them because they had killed his brothers. According to the standards of the times, Gideon had a family obligation to exact vengeance for his brothers' unjust deaths and Gideon was just in his action. Roman 12:19 prohibit christian from taking vengeance: Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Maher Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 Why does Gideon slay Zebah and Zalmunna? They killed Gideon's brothers. Is he unjust or fulfilling his just obligation? He was being just. In his day, this was the normal penalty for what they had done. Why does Romans 12:19 prohibit Christians from taking vengeance? As christians, we are free from the law; we are held to higher standards. We are commanded to love our enemies. The Lord is just. If we love our enemies, we leave room for God's wrath, which is worse than anything we could "dish out" on our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda Stanley Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 It looks like Zebah and Zalmunna were describing the men that they had killed as having "the bearing of a prince,but these kings had killed Gideons own brothers at Mt.Tabor in an incident we aren't told.So,according to the standards of the time,Gidoen has a family obligation to exact vengeance for his brothersNumbers 30-34,Whoever kills a person:: The people were not to confuse accidental manslaughter with premeditated murder.One who had committed homicide was not permitted to flee to a city of refuge.His crime was to be punished by death.I would say in Gideon's time he was not unjust and he was fulfilling his just obligation.This is also showing the other side of Gideon,anger and vengeance,not like the humble and obedient man we read about a few days before.In Romams 12: 19,Believers are not to seek personal revenge,but rather to let God punish.I myself would not want to be in Gideons shoes,as the saying goes.He has made some tough decissions.He was not a weak man.He was humble and strong.We ourselves must learn to restrain ourselves from anger,show mercy towards our fellowman.We all are tempted to sin,but we must be watchful in our acts and control ourselves.Pray for God to help us to show merciful kindness in our behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBORAH Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 Q5. GIDEON WAS AN AVENGER, AND THE "AVENGER OF BLOOD SHALL PUT THE MURDERER TO DEATH" UNDER THE LAWS OF THIS TIME IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. HE WAS JUST IN THE TIMES OF THE OLD TESTAMENT AND ITS LAW AND THE CITIES OF REFUGE. IN THE NEW TESTAMENT JESUS IS TELLING US TO LIVE IN PEACE AND IN HARMONY, AND HE WILL BE THE BEFORE AND THE AFTER JUDGE. ROMANS 12:21 DO NOT BE OVERCOME BY EVIL, BUT OVER COME EVIL WITH GOOD. ARE PRESENT SUFFERINGS ARE NOT WORTHY, NOR SHOULD BE COMPARED,TO THE GLORY THAT WILL BE REVEALED TO US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Huang Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 Gideon killed Zebah and Zalmuna to punish them for killing his brothers. According to Mosaic law his action was just as he was merely carrying out what was laid down in the Jewish tradition. However today's christians are taught not to exact vengeance but to leave it to God for he will repay. It is human nature to want to exact vengeance but we must leave it to God to carry out whatever punishment he deems fit.We are further told not to pay evil with evil but to pay it with good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Reid Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 Q5. Why does Gideon slay Zebah and Zalmunna? Is he unjust or fulfilling his just obligation? (Numbers 35:16) Why does Romans 12:19 prohibit Christians from taking vengeance? Because they had killed his brothers. He is fulfilling his just obligation. We are to leave room for God's wrath. He will avenge, He will repay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 Hi Everyone I am now disagreeing with my answer in question 4 when I said Gideon was just in taking revenge on Succoth and Peniel, For the Old Testamen states in Leviticus 19:18 "Do not take revenge...: this is what Gideon did, revenge or vengeance was forbidden then as is now, ALSO IN proverbs 24: Which is also OT 29Do not say, "I'll do to him as he has done to me; I'll pay that man back for what he did." A spirit of revenge is discouraged Again in Proverbs 20:22 22Do not say, "I'll pay you back for this wrong!" Wait for the LORD, and he will deliver you. The key is to wait for the Lord. Vengeance was God's prerogative. He would repay the wicked for their actions, but revenge seems to be common in ancient times, as is today. But I have to remember that Judges is Leaders whom God raised up to restore the land to peace. This is Gods' doing. God was working through Gideon, but was Gideon just when he took revenge upon Succoth and Peniel and Zebah and Zalmunna? Did he take this into his own hands and done what he saw fit? The Lord did deliver them from the hands of their oppressors but did Gideon do as he saw fit when he took vengenance. In the case of Zebah and Zalmunna, yes, Gideon, did as he was suppose to when reading Numbers 30" `Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness, The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him. This is only if done intentionally but with Succoth and Peniel I think Gideon did wrong and took vengenance upon them and was not just. vengeance is God's business, not ours, we should never seek revenge (Romans 12:19). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Beckner Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 Under the old law, a murderer was put to death. You knew if you killed someone exactly what the punishment was. You were not put on death row for many years....there were no appeals....everyone knew the punishment they would recieve for every crime. This kept order in the land. Because Christians have faith, we do not get justice for ourselves. We show love and patience and humility to those who wrong us...by these things we grow to be more like Christ. We patiently wait for Christ to come and settle all things. His judgement will be fair. Everyone will get a just reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 Of course, Gideon was justified in his feelings of anger toward these two men. They had killed his brothers! Whether he was acting as an agent of the Lord, who can say? Gideon made many mistakes while acting on his own, and this may have been one of them. We as Christians, of course, cannot seek vengeance. I am reminded of so many scriptures (many I quoted for Question 4 ) , but the one that strikes me most is the quote of the powerful words of Jesus as he hung dying on the cross, while in excruciating pain and feeling abandoned by all: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." Luke 23:34. What an example to us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fina Posted February 7, 2003 Report Share Posted February 7, 2003 Why does Gideon slay Zebah and Zalmunna? Gideon slays Zebah and Zalmunna in act of vengeance in killing his brothers. Is he unjust or fulfilling his just obligation? (Numbers 35:16) "According to the standards of the time, Gideon has a family obligation to exact vengeance for his brothers' unjust deaths." Why does Romans 12:19 prohibit Christians from taking vengeance? (8:18-21) It prohibits Christians from taking vengeance for it is written:" It is mine to avenge; I will repay.[Deut. 32:35, Ro 12:19] These verses affirms that avenging is God's prerogative. It difficult indeed, "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."[Matt. 5:40] and "to love your enemy" [Matt 5:44]. That's why we should always seek God's help to strengthen our faith, that this faith may produce love, and this love may produce obedience that will teach us to obey his commandments of loving one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripofhisgrace Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 You know, I thought I had the answer to this until I read Vickie's response. Now I am all confused. I did however, appreciate Mindy's response. I can say, without a doubt, that Gideon did not have access to Romans so I think he acted within the prevailing law. The question would be did he do this to fufill the law or did he do it with vengence in his heart?? susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelda huffman Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Gideon I believe did what God told him to do and the way God wanted it done. yes gideon was just to do Gods will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DebChats Posted February 8, 2003 Report Share Posted February 8, 2003 Gideon slays them because they killed his brothers. This is a prime example of "an eye for an eye". I believe he was just in killing these men. The dangers of letting them go is too great. There are many reasons God would forbid us taking revenge. We live in a world of deceitfulness and emotions. It would be chaotic to take our own revenge. God brought His kingdom here to this earth for those that want to live in it .. We must live by His Word .. not our feelings or our own reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Hill Posted February 9, 2003 Report Share Posted February 9, 2003 5. Gideon ask Zebah and Zalmunna what kind of men did they kill at Tabor. They said men like Gideon - each one with the bearing of a prince. He told them they were his brothers and if they had spared their lives - he would not kill them. Gideon then told his oldest son Jether, to kill them. He didn't kill them because he was only a boy and was afraid. It would have been a dishgrace to have been murdered by a boy. Numbers 35:16 says Gideon is a murdered. In romans 12:19 it says avenge not yourselves but rather give place unto wrath, for it is written, vingeance is mine; I will repay saith the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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