Q1. Universal Atonement

[Bob Wardrop]

#2 Ques 1-5:I find it difficult to give the answer that the majority of you are giving. The reasoning follows: I question that the verses being studied are pertaining to Jesus the Christ. Most modern interpretors deny that the passages are referring to an individual. I agree.

According to the Bible, true prophets were recognized by:

1: signs (Ex. 4:8; Isa. 7: 11, 14), although signs alone were not sufficient.

2: by the fullment of his predictions (Deut. 18: 21,22).

3: by his teaching (Deut. 13: 1-5; Isa. 8:20)

Verse 22 in number 2 above raises this query: If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message that the Lord has not spoken, that the prophet has spoken presumptuously.

The question that bothers me about prophecies is: how long a period of time is allowed for the prophecy to be fulfilled? If there is no time limit, then I submit that there has never been a false prophet unless the prophet placed a time restriction upon his or her prophecy.

Hebrew prophecies, however predictive in character, were always related to the concerns and issues of the time in which the prophet was living.

I apologize for digressing, but I could not answer the questions as they were worded without explaining why.

SHALOM, Bob

[debs4jc]

From how large a group of people does God remove sins in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12? In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation? In what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people?

God removes sins from "many" and "The Lord has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all". God, through Jesus, has allowed for the sins of all mankind to be removed. In the sense that potentially every sin ever committed could be forgiven (because Jesus sacrifice is big enough to cover them all) than the sacrifice is universal. But not all confess with their mouths and believe in their hearts that Jesus is the Christ and was raised from the dead. For those who do not believe the sacrifice seems wasted because it's there for them, just waiting for them to take it, but only they can use it and only they can make that decision themselves and if they don't then that portion of the sacrifice just goes unused. How sad

[Annette Phillips-Gay]

God removes sin from all, not just the Jews, but for all, as is said "the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all so in that sense it's universal. It was not just for one people but for all people. By the shedding of the blood we are all covered; and by this man, meaning mankind, has been absolved from the shame of sin. Jesus' sacrifice is wasted on some people because they hear the good news and they reject it. Some people seem to think that their way is better. There are many people who are given many chances to repent and don't; in that sense it is wasted, but God knew that some would reject him and still we are all offered the chance to repent.

[Patricia A. Conti]

Jesus sacrifice was to free all from sin so as to bring all God's children into full communion with him. However, in order to benefit from this sacrifice, we must believe in the miracle that Jesus is. We must believe that we are saved through Jesus life and death and resurrection. We must ask for God's forgiveness and accept his grace. Many people still deny Jesus and all that God gives us. For them it is a great loss. Jesus' sacrifice and God's grace is not available to them because they do not believe and therefore cannot accept.

Praise God for all he has done for us. I believe and accept Jesus as my savior and God's free gift of grace. We can only pray that those who don't might have their eyes opened and see the truth.

[Audrey Hill]

Q1. From how large a group of people does God remove sins in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12? God removes sins for many.

In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation? It's a universal sacrifice of salvation because He took on the sins of the nations - the sins of the whole world.

In what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people? It is wasted on some people because they don't believe in Him.

[Dennis Williams]

Q1. From how large a group of people does God remove sins in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12? In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation? In what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people? Exposition

According to 52:15 it is many nations, and according to 53:12 it is many people. To catch the full implication we must look at John 3:16, whosoever,

this implies it is universal in scope and nature of the sacrifice. I think it is clear from this that Jesus' sacrifice itself is never wasted in any sense of the word, but that many people have already and many people will in the future waste their opportunity to be covered by Christ sacrifice.

[Mary Beth Whittam]

(Here goes my best answer) Christ sacrifice was for the whole world. The Suffering/Servant is a figure of the lamb.

...he will sprinkle many nations

...he was given all our iniquiities

...he will make many right in God sight

...he wore the sins of many

The Servant is a picture of the lamb. He plotted out all our sins. Jesus sacrifice in not wasted at All it is a personal choose not to receive salvation.

[linda bass]

Isaiah 53:6 says "the Lord has laid on Him(jesus) the iniquity of us all."

That means everybody including you and me. Jesus' sacriface deals with sin on a universal basis.

Jesus' sacriface is ignored by those who see no need for salvation. Many are unconvicted of their sins and see no reason for repentance. Others feel that their good deeds will out weigh the bad in God's eyes. Then there are some you feel their sins are so horrible and outrageous that God can't possibly forgive them.

I am thankful that God's gift of eternal life is free and that it doesn't depend on whether I am worthy to receive it or not.

[brendamyfrienda]

What does it mean in Is. 53:8 where it speaks of his decendants? Are we the decendants of Christ? Or does it mean that He had no decendants?

Thank you,

Brenda

[Melatiah]

Q1. From how large a group of people does God remove sins in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12? In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation? In what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people?

Jesus bore the sins of all people...everyone who had or would ever live....once and for all. Jesus' sacrifice is wasted on some people when they choose to harden their hearts and pay for their sins all over again instead of accepting his sacrifice as sufficient.

[billhayes]

A blessed Easter to all! I had emergency gall bladder surgery this week, so I am having to stay away from Church today -- but I still celebrate the Reussurection of The Lord.

Isaiah 52-53 is pretty clear -- "The Lamb" will die for the sins of "many nations" -- even "for all". This does not mean that everyone will be saved -- but that Jesus' sacrafice makes it available to all. It's up to each individual to decide if they are going to accept the saving work of Christ for themselves -- and truly begin to follow Christ.

I heard a story of a Presbyterian minister being examined as he was coming into a Presbytery. This fellow had lived the life of an alcholholic before turhing his life over to God and going into the ministry. He had attended a Seminary that some thought to be very liberal. Some were afraid he would teach that all would be saved. On the floor of Presbytery he was asked if he believed that all would be saved. He replied "Well -- I believe that if God can save someone like me -- he can save just about anybody else." That's the way I feel about it -- if God can save me, God can save anyone -- if they will let Him!

Peae! Bill Hayes

[DebChats]

From how large a group of people does God remove sins in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12? In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation? In what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people?

There is not any mention of how many exactly, but there is reference that there will be many that accept this salvation. And many nations as well.

It is universal in the fact that whomever desires "salvation" or "forgiveness of sins" can receive both. Before Jesus, only the nation of Israel could receive "forgiveness of sins".

Though I disagree with the concept that Jesus's sacrifice was wasted, I think I understand the question .. Just as there will be many who accept the sacrifice, there also will be many who do not accept this sacrifice. Though the bible clearly states that God wishes ALL to repent and accept the sacrifice (2Pet.3:9), the bible also states that Jesus bares the sins of 'many' (Is.53:12). To say that Jesus bares the sins of many would tell me that He did not bear the sins of 'all'.

[Liza]

Jesue removes sin from all humanity

[HisSchechinahGlory]

[From how large a group of people does God remove sins in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12?

The group consists of all of man kind, those who fear the Lord continually everyday.

In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation? In the sense that God is the creator of the whole universe and everything in it. This brings me great sorrow for I idolize cigarettes. I am scared yet I have not let them go even knowing this. So where is my fear really? This worries me. And for that I am feeling Jesus

[pablo pinel]

According to Isaiah God will remove the sins of all peoples on the earth. In 52:10 he writes ". . . the entire earth . . ." which here stands for the "remote regions" the extremities and everything inbetween on the earth.

It can be considered a universal sacrifice in that it encompasses all peoples & nations, though the word universal may be a misnomer in that the angels are not included in this plan.

It can be said that Jesus' sacrifice was wasted on some people when you think about those that in the past, the present and those in the future that came to know the truth and knowing it, still rejected it and continue to live in their decadent, perverse and immoral styles, hating God. God being a just God has all the right to condemn and destroy all of us, yet because He is a mercyfull and loving God, He still saacrificed Himself even for a few. He would not have destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah if Abraham would have found just 10 people who loved God.

[AngelOnLine]

Q1. From how large a group of people does God remove sins in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12?

He takes away the sins of the world! Anyone who will repent receives salvation.

In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation?

This sacrifice is universal because it covers people everywhere. Not only for the sins they have committed, but for any sins they will commit in the future. The sacrifice was made for everyone that would accept it.

In what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people?

Jesus

[MyBeloved]

GOD removes sins from all who will receive the Lord Jesus Christ as personal Savior. This sacrifice of salvation is universal in that whosoever will may take of this free gift. Jesus' sacrifice is not wasted on anyone, but those who reject Him will not see eternal life.

[heatherdills]

gOD REMOVES SINS FROM MANY. tHIS IS A UNIVERSAL SACRIFICE OF SALVATION BECAUSE hE DID IT FOR GENITILES AS WELL AS THE jEWS. tHS IS WASTED ON SOME PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY DO NOT ASK JESUS CHRIST INTO THEIR HEARTS AND THANK HIM FOR WHAT hE HAS DONE FOR US.

[jbwalya]

God's target group for removing sin mentioned in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 is the whole word.

God's anger for the sin of the world was laid upon upon the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb who takes away our sins. Those who deny Christ as their Lord Saviour in a sense waste away Jesus' sacrifice because to their shame they refuse their sins to covered under this universal atonement.

[Helen]

He was cut off for the transgression of "My people". In the old testament this meant Israel, but Paul appropriated it for the Galatians, Corinthians, Romans etc. Peter was clearly shown that gentiles were included in salvation when he dreamed of the sheet and all the animals. So all nations are included - salvation is available for everyone. The size of the group is inferred by the word "many". Many are saved but not all. All nations are included, but not all people of all nations.

As many as received Him........became the sons of God. God would not have anyone die to salvation. However, we have a part too. We must believe and receive Him. Then we can be justified in the substituting of the man Jesus to bear the punishment for our sin.

There will be those who do not receive Him, and do not avail themselves of Jesus' sacrifice. Tragically.

[mcintosg]

From how large a group of people does God remove sins in Isaiah 5:13-53:12? In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation? In what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people?

Isaiah tells us that:

He will sprinkle many nations" (52:15)

"He laid on him the iniquity of us all." (53:6)

"He will justify many" (53:11)

"He bore the sin of many" (53:12)

This is a universal sacrifice of salvation in the sense that Jesus was sacrifice for for the nation, the whole world.

God gives us free will. Isaiah tells us that He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. It is when we do not accept Jesus, the Lamb of God, as Lord and savior of our life.

[revagg]

I see a problem on the term "Universal Atonement." Does this mean "universal salvation" which means everybody will be saved? Obviously, this will mean the tenets of "Universalism." If universalism is implied in this I will not agree with the exposition. If universalism (or everybody will be saved) is referred to here, the coming of the Lord to the world through His incarnation will mean nothing. I think the term "Universal Atonement" should not mean "universalism" per se. However, I might need more explanation regarding this. I cannot equate the two terms as the same in essence. It will run opposite the meaning of John 3:16 --- ". . . whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." Or try John 1:12---"As many as those who received him he gave them the right to become children of God." The joy of believing in Jesus is when you are assured that you will be saved because you have manifested faith in him. Any person who believes in Jesus can claim for the promise in 1 John 1:9 --- "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Where is "universalism" at this point? Unless of course, you mean that God's love is intended for all creation.

[Sonshine]

From how large a group does God remove sins in Isaiah 52:13-53:12? In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation? In what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people?

a. God removes sins from many nations (52:15). This, in our present understanding, means all nations.

b. Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross was to bear the sins of all, or any who would believe, as in John 3:16 (For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [/i][/b]that whosever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

c. Jesus' sacrifice was not wasted for he would have borne the cross even for one of us. However, it's unspeakably sad that many will reject him and in this sense, the blood of Christ will be wasted.

[glory]

GOD HAS REMOVED SINS FROM ALL PEOPLE BY THE SHEDDING OF HIS SON'S PRECIOUS BLOOD ON CALVARY.OUR SINS WERE TRANSFERRED UPON HIM SO WHOEVER WILL RECEIVE HIM INTO THEIR HEARTS AND REPENT OF SINS WILL BE FORGIVEN.

GOD'S SACRIFICE IS UNIVERSAL IN THAT CHRIST ATONED FOR ALL, NOT JUST THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.ISAIAH SAYS "HE WAS WOUNDED FOR MY TRANSGRESSIONS AND BRUISED FOR MY INEQUITIES"--THE KEY WORD BEING MY, NOT THEIRS.WE ARE ALL INCLUDED IN THIS COVENANT IF WE'RE HIS. HEALING IS PART OF OUR INHERITANCE; HEALING IS THE CHILDREN'S BREAD.

JESUS RESPECTS OUR CHOICE TO SERVE HIM OR NOT.HE IS A GENTLEMAN AND WILL NOT FORCE ANYONE TO BE SAVED; IT HAS TO BE THEIR DECISION.AS A RESULT, HIS SACRIFICE WILL GO UNWANTED BY MANY....GOD BLESS.

[Alicea]

Q1. From how large a group of people does God remove sins in Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12? In what sense is this a universal sacrifice of salvation? In what sense is Jesus' sacrifice wasted on some people?

The scriptures in Isaiah say many, many nations, that means not just the Jewish race but other nationalities as well. Jesus sacrifice is wasted on those who don't accept it.