Pastor Ralph Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? Job's vision of resurrection sees life after physical death; the body lives again: his eyes can see the Redeemer. This is much more joyful and hopeful than the Jews' former understanding of Sheol where one experiences gloom and despair and no longer enjoys life. "Progressive revelation" is the Job's thought that there is life after the death of the physical body where one will, in the flesh, see God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabatha Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? When the book of Job was written, Israel did not have a well-developed doctrine of the resurrection. Although Job struggled with the idea that God was presently against him, he firmly believed that in the end God would be on his side.This was so strong that Job became one of the first to talk about the resurrection of the body. ( see also Psalm 16:10, Isaiah 26: Daniel 12:2,13 ) Job said: " in my flesh I will see God." In Job's situation; it seemed unlikely to him that he would, in his flesh, see God, and that's just the point of Job's faith! He was confident that God's justice would triumph, even if it would take a miracle like resurrection to accomplish this. Gradually, slowly, God begins to reveal to his prophets that there is something more than darkness beyond death. Theologians call this revealing of more truth as time goes on, "progressive revelation." Job wonders: " If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come." ( Job 14:14 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritamae Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Job saw beyond the resurrection, because he says I know my redeemer liveth and he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. The Jews saw the grave as a place of despair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritamae Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? Job saw beyond the resurrection, because he says I know my redeemer liveth and he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. The Jews saw the grave as a place of despair,a place where you do not enjoy being in the presence of God. Progressive revelation is when God reveals knowldge to us as we have the ability to receive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 As a result of Job's faithfulness while going through trials and times of suffering, God not only restored his life 10 fold, but revealed to man, as never before, the spiritual reality of life beyond sheol or the grave. God chooses His time and place to reveal truth to humanity. This passage from Job is a great example of God's progressive revelation to humanity. As God has worked with His people He has revealed more and more about Himself, life, salvation, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandy Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? Sheol is a place from which no one can save himself (Ps. 89:48). Once there, a person has no hope of returning to the realm of the living (Job 7:9; 17:13-16). In Sheol there is no activity of work, planning, knowledge, or wisdom (Eccl. 9:10); no one praises God from there (Pss. 6:5; 88:10-12; Isa. 38:18). a place of darkness (Job 10:21-22) and a place of silence (Pss. 94:17; 115:17). It is clear that Job's veiw of death has changed from earlier passages.In job 7.7 he say's his eye will see no good again as he has become dispondant,yet here in chptr 19 he say,e his flesh( self) will see God. The prevailing thought was that sheol was a place of darkness with no activity,knowledge or wisdom, yet for him to be able to see God implies both activity and intellect after death. What is progressive revelation? The revealing of truth one step at a time. As his way's are higher than ours, this seems to be our Fathers prescribed method of revealing himself and his truths. Paul was another example of one who out of a deep and intimate relationship was revealed the mysteries we call doctorine. Martin Luther was another,other brought back baptisms and so on. I guess the biggest danger of all is that we could ignore new revelations even now, by holding fast to our tradditional thinking and refusing our veiws to be challenged by any new revelation.This would result in us being the same as the Jewish leaders in the days Jesus was in the flesh.Test all things and holdfast to that which is good. some revelations are simply a personal understanding gained,yet they could be the key to unlocking so much more. eg Last week after a time of great worship and meditation I got a revelation. I saw that Mary giving birth to Christ was always God's plan. that she was also a picture of the church.That God was going to bring forth the Christ through the church. also that this is the women in revelation who the dragon sought to destroy. A personnal revelation without a doubt, could it be anything more, only god can tell; but it may be a key for me to come into a better understanding of some other mysteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revmrf Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? A couple of quotes from the Jewish Publication Society's 1985 Tanakh translation: Job 14:14: If a man die, may he live again? All the days of my service would I wait, till my relief should come-- Job 19:25-27: I know that my Vindicator lives; In the end He will testify on earth -- This, after my skin will have been peeled off. But I would behold God while still in my flesh, I myself, not another, would behold Him; Would see with my own eyes: My heart pines within me. For me, it is always good to read other renditions to perhaps get additional perspectives. I believe that, at one time, at least some of the Hebrews writers understood that death and the grave was the end. Job's view, however, may differ in that his expectation is to see with his own eyes while 'still in the flesh' his Redeemer/Vindicator after death. As I don't think that Ps. 6 or Ps. 88 - quoted earlier in the study - predate the writing of Job, it seems to me that, even during the most ancient of times, there were variations of belief/understanding among the Hebrews regarding the possibility of resurrection. Progressive Revelation: In my own words I'd define it as 'the unveiling of God's mind based upon the Hebrew and Christian scriptures as time proceeds.' Some would say that this unveiling goes beyond those particular scriptures in that the Hebrew and Christian scriptures may be added to... that is, appended [or addended?] I don't agree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-M Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 "Sheol" is seen as a place of despair and of nothingness whereas Job sees death as a time of renewal and of hope after the hard slog of life. In Sheol, God's presence is withdrawn whereas God's presence is central and what Job most yearns for after death. To Job, God is his Redeemer, concerned about him, his Rescurer, his Saviour and His Deliverer whereas to the Jews, they are forgotten after death. Job is yearning for this because to him, it will be wonderful and he will be able to praise, whereas in "Sheol", there is no praise, there is nothing to be glad about. God does not show His wonders, His love or faithfulness. Job believes the exact opposite. In death, he will see God as He is. He can't wait. Progressive revelation is the revealing of more truth over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamountain Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Jobs vision of resurection involved a much more loving understanding in he would live again in a life of love with God, while the jews saw death as a deep dark place the end of the rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carole Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? Progressive revelation: Something that is progressive is characterized by continuous improvement. A revelation is something that was previously unknown but has now been made known. Therefore "progressive revelation" is the continuous making known of previously unknown things. This is the way life works. None of us are born knowing it all. Nor are we born again with complete knowledge. God is continuously making known to us things that were previously not in our knowledge bank. And so God has always worked with mankind. The Jews' former understanding of death was that of a spiritual existence only. Job introduces the idea of physical resurrection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gromitsmum Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 By the time Adam was 130 he had experienced the death that comes with sin, and seen his son Abel murdered. I wonder what his view of death was? He and his decendants lived such very long earthly lives (930 years is some life experience isnt it?) I wonder if he expected anything after death? He obviously had a relationship with God - after being banished from the Garden he must have feared God. His decendants didnt take too long to turn their backs on their Creator and seemed to have no fear of Him. And then the flood!!! Surely Noah must have had a healthy fear and respect for God? but whether or not he considered life after death we cannot tell. Were the long lives a hint from our amazing God that He intended us to live forever? The Lord promised Abram that he would "go to his fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age" (Genesis 15 v 15) which implies something better than the torment of sheol and a cutting off from God. If Genesis is written chronologically then this promise comes before the "gathering of bones" mentioned in the notes. Could "gathered to his people" not imply that he was going to meet with those who had died before him? I think "progressive revelation" must be a little more complicated than the slow unveiling of mysteries or secrets over a long period of time. Could it be that God's revelation comes to the individual on a personal level? I was under the impression that the book of Job was written quite early on, well before the Prophets and Psalms, which would suggest that Job's vision of resurrection was an early experience / revelation. Personal experience leads me to think God does reveal truth / mysteries to us when we are ready - obviously in His perfect timing. Job's faith is demonstrated beautifully by the phrase "I know my Redeemer / deliverer lives" and must have been more than the prophecy it clearly is. As you can see, I have more questions than answers - is that a cue for a song? God bless you every one and good night. xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s8nfighter Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 In Sheol there was a separation from God, both body and spirit. It was the final judgment of sin; something to be feared. Here Job has given a little insight of what was yet to come, God's redeeming sacrifice to all. To redeem is to buy back, to pay the price for. To redeem also means to remove the obligation of; the obligation of the penalty of sin was death. Job indicates that there is no longer a need to pay that price; hence the restoration of a the body and soul. Job 19 is full of the words of Christ. Although we face judgment of others, Job cautions us to be careful to not judge others lest we face judgment of God. Job 19 also mirrors John 1 in the fact that he reveals that our Redeemer was, is and is yet to come. Progressive revelation is revelation little by little. Progressive revelation waits for history to prove it. History or proven revelation is easier to understand, I guess that is why hindsight is easier than vision but less profitable. Darrell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisstudent Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? Job trusted that his flesh would be raised again to be in the presence of the Lord, whereas the Jews held that the body was in the grave (sheol). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabpet Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 The Jew's former understanding of death refers to process after which one goes to a place of gloom and despair, where there is no enjoyment of life. To the Jews this applied to both good and bad. While Job's vision of death is about happiness after death, being redeemed by his redeemer despite what he is going through in the world, being able to see God after death and more so in the flesh which does not make any sense to the Jews. Theologians refer to "Progressive revelation" as the revealing of more truth as time goes on about what happens beyond death. In this particular case, God reveals to his prophets that there is something more than darkness beyond death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymondl Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? Job's notion of resurrection envisions not only the the continuing of the soul, but also the resurrection of the physical body to a new and glorious form. This is a form that allows him to see God with his own physical and spiritual eyes. It differs from the Jews earlier understanding of death in that rather than the soul remaining in the dark, dismal realm of the dead, the soul upon God's wish is reunited with a resurrected body that is perfected and able to stand in the presence of God. Progressive revelation is God's revelation to Mankind in portions - over time - as He deems best ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJeff Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 It would seem that Sho'l, to the Jews, was a place where we would go when we died. A place of darkness, where our soul would forever be imprisoned. Job, on the other hand, saw something different. He had a taste of a new life after death, wherein he would see his Redeemer, and that same Redeemer would return to us, in the latter days. Progressive revelation is the gradual unraveling of God's mystery, through time, by His prophets, great and small, as recorded in His Word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masika Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 During Job's time there was no written rule that he could read and learnt, he only got this revelation from God that without his body he could still see God. The Jews Sheol was a place were people go after dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabatha Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? Shoel was as Hades or hell a place of eternal darkness a place of nothingness. a place where one can no longer enjoy life, where there was no presence of God. ( Psalm 6:5 ) " No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave. ( sheol ) ( Psalm 88:10-12 ) D0 you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead rise up and praise you? Is your love decleared in the grave? Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in teh land of oblivion. What a horrible place to be in. ( Job 19: 25-27 ) " I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end He will stand upon the earth and after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes--- I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" Job I believe had a vision of of heaven and He then knew there was life after death. I believe he knew his life was not for nothing but after death there was more. I believe hope rose up in him and it took him through the hell he was going through on earth. I believe at that time he was give a promise that his life was in something far greater than what he had on this earth I believe he saw his redeemer and knew someday he would be with him in another life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PATJOE Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Job's vision is one of light and hope that some day he will see His Lord. Sheol is a dark place with no hope and where the Lord is not present. Progressive Revelation: As years go by, more and more is learned by us and revealed by the Lord to help answer the many questions asked about life after death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm listening Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? My very simple understanding, because of my very simple mind, is that the Jews' former view of death was of a negative nature. Job's vision was a positive experience. Progressive revelation would be the revealing of something in pieces at a time - not a straightforward answer but answers revealed over time - building on top of each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhm Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Job's response is an enthusiastic response to the certainty of life after death, a joyful anticipation of his personal resurrection and a meeting with God Himself. jhm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy McG Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? One thing I noticed was that in Sheol, the presence of Yahweh has been withdrawn, but Job knows that he will see his Redeemer again, and be close to God. What is progressive revelation? Progressive revelation is to let the truth be known a little at a time in ways that we can understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haar Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Jew's former understanding of death was that once someone died, that was the end as he went to Sheol, a dark isolated region where God was absent. However, as God began to give His prophets more revelations, Job realised that he would see God. That is, there was still hope after death. Progressive revelation is the revelation of more truth with the passage of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Q1. How does Job's vision of resurrection (Job 19:25-27) differ from the Jews' former understanding of death as Sheol? What is progressive revelation? " I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes -- I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" (Job 19:25-27) Job believed that he would be raised to life again and that he would have his same body back that he would see his redeemer face to face. The early Jews only belived in an after life they didn't for see a body or their presence in front of their redeemer. progressive revelation is where a greater knowledge of God is given to later generations and a deeper faith in the appearance of God in our lives is revealed to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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