Pastor Ralph Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabatha Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? If Jesus did not come to abolish the law, does that mean all the Old Testament laws still apply to us today? In the Old Testament there were three categories of law: ceremonial civil, and moral. (1) The ceremonial law related specifically to Israel's worship ( Leviticus 1: 2,3 for example ). Its primary purpose was to point toward to Jesus Christ: these laws, therefore, were no longer, necessary after Jesus ' death and resurrection. While we are no longer bound by ceremonial laws, the principles behind them-- to worship and love a Holy God-- still apply. Jesus was often accused by the Pharisees of violating ceremonial law. ( 2 ) The civil law applied to daily living in Israel ( Deuteronomy 24: 10,11 for example). Because modern society and culture are so radically different from that time and setting, all of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. But the principles behind the commands are timeless and should guide our conduct, Jesus demonstrated these principles by example. ( 3) The moral law ( such as the Ten Commandments ) is the direct command of God, and it requires strict obedience ( Exodus 20: 20 : 13 for example ) The moral law reveals the nature and will of God, and it still applies today. Jesus obeyed the law completely. In a church where the Old Testament is abolished from our Christian Faith there is no Spirit of God. Man has taken control and their laws are pre- domanant In a church where it is filled with legalism The Holy Spirit is not allowed to move in the gifting and the prophetic is not allowed. It is a sin filled church full of fleshly control.. It is not God's church it is ruled by man. And the people make their own rules. There fore there is a lot of disobedience. I would consider it a very carnal church. Much like the Corinthian church. Many of todays churches are so full of man building his own kingdom. You hardly find the Holy Spirit there. Lots of self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eudora Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? The only tendencies in the church today that I see to effectively abolish the Ten Commandments are in two different ways. # 1, We may keep nine of the laws, but not all ten. We have accepted mans law that says that we may observe on Sunday, the first day of the week, instead of keeping and guarding and remembering the Sabbath. The other is to sit by and let these monuments to be dragged out of sight and hidden. While they are just that, monuments, they have been there all these years and now that we live in a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosemary NoVA Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? Reflecting on this question, I can't think of examples from the congregations in which I have been active. Two congregations followed a liturgy which included weekly readings from the old & new testaments and the teaching from the pulpit included both old and new testament scriptures. The sunday school curriculum followed a cycle of study where both Old and New Testament books were taught. In another congregation, the teaching is chapter-by-chapter through each book in the Bible with age-appropriate Sunday School lessons on the same track. What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? attitudes rooted in man's natural inclination rather than Godly understanding. "Ranking" of members based upon "natural" observations & prejudices (i.e. The false presumption that a woman who makes her living as a maid should serve as a custodian at the church rather than a healing prayer minister or teacher. Or a woman who serves as a VP at her company should naturally be an elder, not "just" a Sunday School teacher.). Churches that produce servants-of-man rather than disciples of Christ. What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? Like a social gathering where folks who like to be around others come and are gratified to be noticed and lauded for good works. Where self is confirmed and affirmed and the rewards of earth are sought and the rewards of heaven are unrealized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleBlake Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? There are some churches who would abolish the Old Testament, namely the Law from our Christian Faith, in light of a "Grace Only" doctorine. Both should be taken hand in hand. By this, I mean, as Jesus said, He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfull it. Therefore, the Law serves it's purpose in 1)giving us guidelines by which to live, and 2) pointing to the fact that we are sinful, broken human beings in desparite need of God's Grace through Jesus Christ. Christian Legalism in the church states that if we do what is right in the sight of God, we are saved, by living up to what the law demands...we must see by now that there is no way anyone can live up to that. For that very reason, Christ came to earth, took on flesh, and sacrificed Himself a Living Sacrifice to bridge the gap between God and Man. Legalism, in a church described in the question, doesn't exist...it's a thing to be avoided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toney Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? It seems that the last half of this past century the church has become so "grace" oriented that the law side of God has been diminished and diluted. The moral basis of the Old Law is still intact today. It is possible to be works oriented and lose the "spirit" of the law. Rules and "things" become emphasized and the spirit of Grace and Love is lost. On the other hand, when God's people only want to hear about God's love and grace, standards of holiness begin to fall and everybody wants to hear about how everybody sins more of less every day. Eventually it becomes more,than less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulu 1931 Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 1.Yes I think that some churches try to be more "modern" and less teaching from the whole Bible.I think this is differntly affecting our younger people. 2.It is churches following the ceremony of the rituals of their church required by the laws of their denomination and doing this with forgiveness and grace. 3. Very sad and ugly...not many true Christians, mostly "Fareweather "church goers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjj Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? People Pleasing becomes the focus of many churches. The socialization of churches to create an atmosphere that attracts those from the world often brings about the compromise that effectively abolishes the Old Testament. Certain themes (you have to wear a hat, you can do this you can't do that etc) reflects mans choices and can project legalism. This then creates conflict among members and other churches. They key I think is that every person, every family, every church needs to be in constant prayer to God to always be in the place, spirit and obedience that God reveals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cee Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? There are some churches that does have these tendencies to effectively abolish the Old Testament from our Christian faith today. A Christian legalism look like in some of the churches today as a cult to me. That kind of a church does not have a foundation built by God or His people to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? I use to think the 10 Commandments were, thou shalt not go to dances, thou shalt not drink wine, thou shalt not play cards. I am so happy that the Holy Spirit has taught me, Jesus came to redeem my soul, He has given me the Holy Spirit to help me live a life that is pleasing unto God, to treasure His Law. It is by God's grace (I have a new heart) not by my works, just as it was with God's chosen people - the Jew's. It was by God's grace He brought them out of Egypt, not by their works, it was by God's grace that He brought them back to their promised land, not because of their righteousness, God tells us in (Eze 36:23) And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. -- It is all by God's wonderful GRACE. What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? I see a church that does not have the Joy of the Lord, that does not like the "Light" for it hurts the eye. I think we could put the church's seen in Revelation 1-3 here; For 5 out of the 7 churches are given warnings to a church that no longer holds God's Law dear to them. God's law is a "light" that shines ahead of us, showing the path for us to walk, to walk blameless before God Almighty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? Yes, today so many pastors teach and preach only using the New Testament and most know very little of the Old Testament scriptures. Some pastor even try to justify their sins by disavowing the Old Testament. Christian legalism allows for people professing to be pastors to teach while living in sin men living with men and women living with women, justifing a life style that even Jesus condemned. Church that have no moral standards allow so-called christians to do as they please and pastors to do the same. Where there is no morals in the church there is no faith just a worldly creed of its ok to do what I want. When there is no obedience there can be no prayer life or love for neighbor and certainly not God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia A Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? I know of some groups who feel the Old Testament is not relative but thankfully, my church fellowship and denomination are not led in the direction. Those who insist the New Testament teaches that the Old Testament is outmoded and irrelevant for Christians today ignore the abundance of evidence to the contrary within that same New Testament! What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? When I say these are legalistic, I am not thinking about those who believe every work of scripture and apply them in such a way that can be supported in the light of all of scripture. Christian legalists to me are those who take certain passages of scripture to imply the Bible says something that really cannot be supported in it full light. Also, I am thinking about those who try to conform to the letter without having the Holy Spirit so that they are unable to apply the scriptures with any wisdom or understanding. They are like some modern lawyers of our day who often twist the truth on purpose to achieve their desired outcome of deception. What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? A church like this would be no different from society in general. People would live to do what they chose to do without regard for God's WORD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanMary Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? 1) Not in our church, but I've read that this is becoming quite common, along with no longer talking about sin, and the Blood of Jesus, because "it offends people". I've heard it said that because Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets, they are no longer relevent in some churches, especially some of the seeker churches. 2) Legalism is focusing on outward conformity to rules of man. ie: I was told once years ago, that it's a sin for a woman to wear pants, especially to church. When a church is devoid of the Holy Spirit's leadership, this kind of bondage creeps in. We didn't stay long in that church....rigid, cold, lifeless place, BUT EVERY WOMAN WORE DRESSES, and looked critically at the few who didn't. 3)I'm not sure how to answer the last question....I was thinking of the other extreme of legalism, which is lawlessness, but I'm not sure what Pastor Ralph was looking for. I'll look forward to reading other's input on this. Maybe conformity to attendance, or "the way we do things here". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masika Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? -We are not very far from what was happening in Jesus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustJeff Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 I have experienced a pastor who would preach that we are no longer under the Old Testament just the New and would discourage the study of it. At the same time, I've read pastors who rely on the Old Testament and the blessings to the Jews to start and defend a nation as a means to preach prosperity messages. So no, I don't think that there is an effort to abolish the Old Testament in Christianity. We're just confused because we don't wish to accept the whole truth that is the Word of God. In the church legalism stems to fleshly interpretations of the Word causing traditions established by men and new laws that cannot be followed. A church with no moral standards and no obedience to the Word of God is a false religion, not Christianity. Jesus calls these people who do many great works in His name workers of iniquity who do not know Him at all. They will be cast down before Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s8nfighter Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? Yes there are some forms of worship which forsake the LAW. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Have you ever wondered about this verse? It really does go against the once saved always saved and anything goes belief. It actually goes back to Jeremiah 31 when the LORD says "33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." niv Through the Holy Spirit we now know the laws of God and because of the grace of our Savior we should obey those laws out of love and not fear of the law itself. And as long as the Holy Spirit is in us no one church can effectively abolish the Old Testament from Christian faith. Christian legalism filled church? Wow I have not seen that. Altough it is described quite well by the words of Christ himself. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. 30 Give what you have to anyone who asks you for it; and when things are taken away from you, don't try to get them back. 31 Do for others as you would like them to do for you. 32 "Do you think you deserve credit merely for loving those who love you? Even the sinners do that! 33 And if you do good only to those who do good to you, is that so wonderful? Even sinners do that much! 34 And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, what good is that? Even sinners will lend to their own kind for a full return. 35 "Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked. 36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate. Luke 6 nlt I have seen many churches full where the words of Christ in the next few verses of Luke 6 have been turned around to promise great monitary returns when Christ is speaking of forgiving one another. To me that is like saying that God is some sort of slot machine in Vegas that pays out all the time. 37 "Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. Stop criticizing others, or it will all come back on you. If you forgive others, you will be forgiven. 38 If you give, you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full measure, pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, and running over. Whatever measure you use in giving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood C O'Dell Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Christian legalism in the church is found when Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonnie Nelson Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Q1: can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherylle Ladner Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? The Bible is both the Old and New Testaments. When Jesus spoke, he took from the Old Testament to bring His point across to the people. If a church "abolish" the Old Testament, then they are going against the teachings of Jesus. We must reflect on both Old and New Testaments. Without them, where are we going. Since Legalism is man-made, not God-made, then it has no place in the church. BUT you do have those who like to become the legalist of the church. Always telling the pastor of church what he/she can do and not talking to the people who it effects. A church that has no moral standards and no obedience, it reflects in their attitude towards people of the church. It creates choas in the church and keeps the people guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don W Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Yes, many churches don’t have much if anything to do with the Old Covenant in teaching, in obeying (especially the moral laws such as the Ten Commandments) nor seeing how the Lord Jesus fulfilled each and every prophesy and Law of the Old Testament; but the Lord Himself thought this was very important to teach some of His first disciples on the road to Emmaus when He opened all the Scriptures to them and told how He had fulfilled them all. Christian legalism is the making of everyone in the church to obey the law or legalism of the Word of God outwardly but not in an inner manner of which is being led by the Holy Spirit of God. First, a body of believers in a church must have their inward hearts and minds changed to repent of their sins and to turn back to know the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and then to obey Him and His Word to us through the prompting and guidance of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Legalism is when some people try to obey the Lord and keep the moral standards of the Law on their own and think that they don’t need the Holy Spirit to guide them into obedience but they can do it on their own and in their own way. WRONG!!!!!!! One of the reasons why the Law was given to mankind was to help point us to our sinfulness and our need for a Savior so we cannot make it on our own but need Jesus who fulfilled the entirety of the Law to be our Lord and Savior in order to ultimately fulfill the Law ourselves in Him and to be taken to heavenly glory forever to be with Him since He did all of this for us forever. I’ve been in such a church (unnamed) and there is no church discipline in it but only chaos and most everybody there seems to be “doing their own thing” as far as learning and obeying God’s Word in their lives. I have since left and I am going to a different church now that takes seriously church discipline (when needed) and church order, and obeying the Word of God through the Holy Spirit, from both covenants (the Old and New Testaments) because they both have the Lord Jesus Christ in them as the New Covenant is a fulfillment of the Old because of Him. The people in the church I’m attending now seem to be growing in their obedience to the Word and growing closer to the Lord every day, and much more loving and Scriptural then the first church I mentioned above. And I’m doing the same and much more happier and joyful then I was before this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charisbarak Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 There are those tendencies in the church today. People want to just look at the love God has for us, not his holiness. Christian legalism in a church are rules that must be obeyed by all. Things done in a church have to be one strict way--not open to new forms. There in no freedom in Christ there. It looks like a club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sisterlily Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Thankful I do not see any of the churches by me living without God's law and applying it. Now church legalism sadly I see. It looks like what Jesus is rebuking in the church in Revelation. Forgetting their first love Him and putting flesh first, but still thankful for our prayers and the prayers of the faithful that in today much more is being revealed and application is being made where it needs to be applied. We need to remain in prayer for the people of God to remain steadfast in His Holy Word according to Him. God bless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
love.serve.know Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 If a church abolishes the law, how can they accept the New Testament law that says to love God with all our hearts and our neighbor as ourselves? The original Old Testament laws are wrapped up in these two. Christian legalism looks like obeying a bunch of rules - women can't wear slacks or makeup, issues about hair length, etc instead of focusing on Christ's command to love God and neighbor. When a church has no moral standards and no obedience but lots of legalism it looks like what the pharisees must have looked like in the past - lots of living by rules that made them feel like they were good people (outside of cup was clean, inside was dirty where it counts) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom.nabors Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Those churches that allow for "carnal Christians" must be trying to abolish the OT law. They must have stopped reading Romans when they finished chapter 5. Christian legalism in a church appears when members of that church expect others to obey certain church rituals that are not ordained by God. Other than the sacraments of Holy Communion and Baptism, any other sacrament added can become legalism if people just go through the motions of observing them with no heart felt motive for worship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBIC Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 I would have to say that far more preaching and teaching as a whole appears to be devoted to the New Testement. Not always at the "abolishing" of the OT but certainly at the expense of sharing the perspective and contrast the OT offers. As a follower of Jesus it is tempting to spend time studying in the NT at the expense of fully appreciating the law & prophesy and the richness they add to the fulfillment of the NT. I believe Christian leagalism often places emphasis on man's rules and regulations for the purpose of protecting the organized church. The emphsis often turns to measuring each other against these standards and looses sight of the real purpose of sharing the life saving message of the Gospel with those that do not know Jesus. A church without no moral standards and no obedience is now open to man's interpretation and relativism. It leads to questioning moral standards and allowing for individual and situational interpretation. The result is the bar is lower, or disappears completely, and obedience is soon lacking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.