PATJOE Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? I do not speak of the church I attend, but it's easily evident in some churches there is an air of modernizing their message so as not to be labeled "old fashioned". This, in my mind, is an attitude that lends itself to ignoring the Old Testament. Christian legalism in a church (if I understand this question correctly), looks like possibly an attitude that says (without moral or spiritual accountability) - "do as I say -- not as I do" - obey what is written to accommodate what is in the law, then feel free to amend your actions to a point that satisfies you and the self-made god within you . If there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of parishioners, this is not a Christian church, but more a church of the New Age era that teaches you are a god unto yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loisb Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? 1. Yes, some churches would like to abolish the Old Testament and preach only what's popular today in the modern world. Nothing is too bad in today's society. Two examples are abortions and homosexuality. Also, I've noticed that some ministers seldom preach from the Old Testament. 2. In a Church Christian legalism looks like there isn't standards that everyone goes by. Everyone does whatever they want to do and there isn't any peace. There usually is always confusion going on. 3. A church that has no moral standards probably would have a great many members, because they can do or say whatever they want. Since there wouldn't be any peace or love in this church, there would be confusion, back-bitting, and not very much "Word". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DZION Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? Wow, this is a very complex question. First of all most churches that are based on "religion" and make their own doctrine tend to abolish the Old Testiment from our Christian faith. The New Testiment CANNOT be understood without the Old Testiment. Though we now come under grace because of what our precious LORD and Savior did for us, it does not negate the Law. The Law could not save man from sin only grace can do that. Grace does not mean we can run rampant and do just anything that the secular world does. God does not hold a live and let live mindset. He is clear in both the old and new testiments about His commands for the way we are to live. The New Testiment repeats much of the Old Testiment in how we are to live. Jesus said He brings a new covenant, He did not say He brings a new law. In a church where there are no moral standards you will see homosexuals in positions of leadership, this is not right, it is an abomination to God. You will see people calling evil good and good evil. There will be no accountability. They will condone if not encourage divorce. I have even seen a mixing of mystisism with Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Rupert Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? I have seen tendencies in the church today that want to believe that we are "Under Grace" now and that we should not follow what the Old Testament teaches. I believe that in order to understand God you have to start with his Laws because he established them for us to know him. How can one skip this important part? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? I believe that legalism in the church today looks a little like how the Pharisees taught Israel the Law of God. We respect people, we seek people for fellowship and to add to the number of Christians in the church but we don't teach on the level of the people's understand as how Christ taught. The church puts an emphasis on man's laws and rules because they are suppose to mimic the Law of God, but the quality and understanding of The Law of God is missing from the equation of man's law's. What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? A group of people gathering together where chaos is present. No guidance or follow thru, no real understanding of how God expects his children to behave and no real understanding of The Old Testament or New Testament. A place where there is definitely a need for Respect of People versus The Love for God. A world that believes that God is an understanding God so he goes along with what we bring to the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judeshere Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I have noticed that a lot of churches, act like God is there to serve them. The gospel is how much God loves us, with sin thrown in occasionally. People can believe anything they like as long as they profess Jesus, no matter how unbiblical it is. Don't expect any holiness, dying to self or accountability because that is classed as being legalistic. In churches like this, the worse things are according to the leaders, not the Bible, they can also pick and choose what they will allow, and everyone has to agree with them. I see this as legalistic and no moral standards. We need to have the whole counsel of God, a balanced gospel, or we will end up with the extremes. We desperately need to allow the Holy Spirit to be in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of Grace Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I do see tendencies in some churches to abolish Old Testament from our Christian faith. I see it mostly in seeker friendly churches though by some fraction in most every church. It is the tendency to say that we are not responsible for our own actions and sins because we are saved. I know this is a very grave mistake because it eliminates respect for God. It is like having a good Godly father who treats us with kindness and understanding. One who is always looking out for our own good at all times, but then we feel like we can take advantage of that by feeling free to do whatever we want, right or wrong and count on not being disciplined because He's so good! I'm no theological expert, but I think if you truly love God and really ask to be saved, then there will be a seeking for Godliness and that takes discipline and knowing what is right and wrong and a desire to give in love to Him a life that is pleasing to Him. That is respect and fear of the Lord and that starts with wisdom. It is knowing God and what He desires from us. The WHOLE Bible tells us what those things are. We should follow the commandments. But also, Jesus said by the new covenant, "Love God above everything and everybody else" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" and if we follow these two, everything else will be in place. Love is the key here. Not as a license to do or get what we want, but to show our love to a good and gracious God and display His glory in how we treat each other. If we love God and love our neighbor we will naturally follow the old testament commandments. Legalism in a church looks like what the Pharisees did. It's expecting perfection and condemnation if perfection is not met. It's knowing all the laws and scriptures and hitting people over the head to follow them. It's anyone concentrating on everyone else's sin that our own is overlooked or worse yet, anyone thinking they don't sin or their sin isn't quite as bad as another's. There isn't any "heart" in legalism. Just rules and regulations and going to Heaven by how good anyone can keep them. Ha! There is no compassion, no fruit of the Spirit, no love. Everyone needs time to grow and everyone needs compassion. Everyone needs truth.....but with love. Some start by literally getting out of a gutter and it's love that wins them and love will change them if they have a true desire to know God.... change should be evident....but it is a journey and some have come from very deep dark places and may need more time and patience than others. I thank God for those people in my life who are patient with me while I learn! A church with no moral standards or expected obedience looks like the world. Chaos and out of control! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? The tendencies I see is a lack of preaching from the Old Testament. A focus totally on grace, with little focus on personal holiness because we are "under grace." Being under grace doesn't mean that we as Christians don't reflect the morality and holiness of the Living God. Christian legalism in church looks alot like judgmentalism regarding rules for dress and overall appearance, i.e. length of hair, tattoes, etc.; church attendance; loyalty only to a given church -- no outside ministries permitted. A Christian can only listen to a certain kind of Christian or Gospel music. Christians can only minister to a certain class of people. Really, this can go and go. Christian legalism really has to do with things that are exterior and have nothing to do with the interior of the Christian and the discipleship of the believer or the lordship of Jesus Christ in the believers life. Often-times it's individual legalism vice the teachings of Jesus Christ that are the underlying currents in alot of churches. Many times Christians stop going to those churches. A church without moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians is a worldly church where anything goes. Can you really call this a church? It is more like a religious club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swordwoman Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? There seems to be many Christian churches who do not teach the whole counsel of God...they are people pleasers and do not allow the Holy Spirit to bring conviction... Christian legalism is putting emphasis on the outside and not allowing Love to move... It looks like the world, and not the Bride... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 By only preaching on only N.T. times. By ignoring the Ten Commandments and not emphasizing how important they are. We need to help people to understand the full depth & meaning of the Laws and how to fulfill them.Adhering to Old Traditions of ancestors was legalism and only these things were done,while living differently than the commands. Without fulfillment of the laws there is no atonement for sin. With no moral standards there is no unity and chaos is prevalent. Pure disrespect for God and the Law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabarke Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 I believe many of us our satisfied with a "sip of God". We dabble in our personal relationships with God & we immerse ourselves in religion that we often mistake for spirituality. We go to church "religiously" & are involved in all kinds of church programs & committees but neglect our time alone with God developing a close relationship with Him that brings us to hunger & thirst after righteousness which was the intent of the law. We see the law as this encumbering set of rules that our "old nature" just cannot come to term with so we see the life boat of Grace thrown at us & we mistake it for an excuse to now ignore the law & fly by the seat of our pants. Grace is what frees us to serve God with love, joy & gratefulness & we desire to please Him. Keeping the Law becomes a natural out flowing of that deep relationship we develop with God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mags Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 There seems to be less teaching from the Old Testament and more of a focus on the New! The churches I have been involved in haven't really focused on one Testament but instead on the Bible in its entirety. I believe and have found through my studies that there is a very close relationship between the Old and New Testaments - they are parallel and Jesus fulfills and is the centre of both. Christian legalism is that of following their own rules. Often rules are set and people become more focused on those rules - such as not wearing hats in church, the length of a woman's skirt etc. People become focused on the minor things and not on the majors like 'is a person saved?' Chruches with no moral standard etc are no different from the rest of the world - we are called to stand apart - to be in the world and not of the world. These churches are in the world and of the the world. People then get a view of Christians being judgemental and hypocrites - not loving as Jesus has called us to be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moses 4 Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Christians generally seem to think about the Old Testament and the New Testament as entirely separate works. Specifically, it is generally felt that the God of the Old Testament was mean-spirited and quick to anger. In contrast, Jesus in the New Testament is the essence of Love, Tolerance, Patience and Compassion. So we need the Old and New Testament as a living proof of our living GOD" Modern Churches don't see it this way there more interested in collecting Money. There have no moral standards and no obedience, We should pray for those who are lost. Pax Karl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komlan Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? Yes,it looks like this is the time of grace so anything can be done and after all the grace is there. It is no more spirit filled church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meandean Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? that would be like having a dictionary with only words and no definitions.you know, the pharisees played the part,looked the part, in fact, added quite abit to the part, but they had no life in their part. and without the life, it was just empty jargon. unless we yeild to the spirit of god, we too, will play the part, look the part, and add quite abit to the part, but have no life in the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmaus Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 If a preacher isn't preaching from the Old Testament it isn't being taught and therefore being abolished. I wonder, is this type of preaching being taught in seminaries? This seems impossible since the New Testament refers back to the Old Testament. "Christian" legalism in a church would be one that strictly followed the rules, but one without God's spirit in it, one with blind eyes to the needs or concerns of the people. With no moral standards and no obedience in a church it would be a anything goes rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunga Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? yes.most churches preach new testament only.not knowing that the new testament is hidden in the old testament and the old testament is revealed in the new testament.meaning they click together.christian legalism in a church is like too religeous.in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience ,it is like hell.there is no peace.they do their own thing.they are totaly lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAFWEMBE Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? Yes there is more preaching from the New rather than the Old Testament. But in our church this is not the case. Usually at least two readings are taken, one from the New and the other from the Old Testament. Legalism in a church arises when you see compromise in the teaching of the word of God, when sermons people want to hear are the ones preached. In my view there should be a way of correcting those who are not in line. I think confusion reigns when standards in the church are not maintained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted February 19, 2008 Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? I frequently hear Christians say that they are under grace and that the law and the Old Testament do not apply to them. Preachers have stopped preaching out of the Old Testament and some have even limited their preaching to the Pauline letters. Christian legalism can look like: judging the appearance and social status of others; judging church attendance - whether you are attending Sunday and Wednesday services because that is when Church happens; are parents controlling their children the I think, judging the tithes of others, etc. In a church where there is no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians then there is no power and no movement of the Holy Spirit. The church is ineffective and doing nothing for the kingdom of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiewayne Posted February 22, 2008 Report Share Posted February 22, 2008 Q 1A (Matthew 5:17 - 20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian Faith? NO. Q 1B What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? I do not know. Q 1C What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? I have never seen a church like that. If it was like that I don't think it would be a church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candygoo58 Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? A lot of people see no reason for reading the old testament today. thet say we are to live under the new coventant and there is no reason to go back to the old. What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? It's thinking things have to be done the same way all the time. That your way is the right way or you are wrong and going to hell. What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? It's everyone doing there own thing thinking its everyone else that is wrong but not them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn bedsaul Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? In answer to the first question, no I have not seen any tendencies in the church. There may be some churches that has gone to the New Testament, but I haven't experienced any. I have been in two churches in my life, and both teach on the Old and New Testament's. People in other churches say the same thing. Jesus Christ came and paid the law of our sins so we would't have to. We can learn so much from the Old Testament, that is why God put it in the Bible. There are laws we still need to follow, the Ten Commandments for one. Christian legalism is where the church is going by human direction and feeling's, not God's. God is no where in the picture. He has been put on a shelf and forgotten about. The people are serving man, not God. If there are no moral standard or no obedience, the church would be a very sad church. The pastor and the people could do as they please with no regard to the word, to prayer, worship, the Holy Spirit, or even God, Himself. It would be like the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana 527 Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? I see the attitude in some churches that since it's impossible to keep the law of the Old Testament, we'll just ignore it and do our best. In the past, I've attended a church where I think grace was almost over-emphasized. God never meant His grace to be a free pass to a life of sin. I think God meant His grace to apply as a balance where we fail at keeping His law; it was not meant to abolish His law or to excuse us from trying to live up to God's standards. Christian legalism in a church puts all the emphasis on our outward behavior, without addressing the real attitudes of the heart. Anybody can conform to certain behavior standards with a strong enough will, but only God can change a heart. It's much easier to look like a Christian than it is to actually live like one! A church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected is filled with hypocrisy. There is an attitude that you can live it up all week and ask (and receive) forgiveness on Sunday morning. The people don't realize that they are so far from the freedom they think they are living in - they are actually in bondage to sin. Spiritual growth is impossible without an expectation of obedience to Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOnLine Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? This is not happening in my Church. We are taught equally from the Old Testament and the New Testament. What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Posted March 29, 2008 Report Share Posted March 29, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? Most churches that I know of and mine, read an preach from both the Testaments. However, some say that tithing is an O.T. teaching and not a NT one. Christian legalism to me is when people in the church are more concerned about criticising what women, for instance, wear in church, e.g. jeans, than worrying about their own heart's condition with the Lord. When there are no moral standards and obedience in a church, they are making a mockery of God's requirements that we are supposed to be the salt of tyhe earth and showing the world that we are the light of it. Others won't be convinced as oujr testimony would be a very poor one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChildofGod Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Q1. (Matthew 5:17-20) Can you see any tendencies in the church today to effectively "abolish" the Old Testament from our Christian faith? What does a "Christian" legalism look like in a church? What does it look like in a church where there are no moral standards and no obedience expected of Christians? It has been my experience and I have been thought that the Old Testament is alive and well. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament. Leaving the prophecies of the Old Testament would leave mute the fact that Jesus is the Messiah and God's son. I see Christian legalism as people trying to earn their way into heaven and many times this was at the expense of showing God's love. To Love is the greatest commandment. I would think that a church without moral standards and no obedience would look very much like the house of Satan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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