Q2. Relationship of Sin to the Law

[DKZander]

Q2. (Romans 5:13, 20) What is Paul saying in these verses? Can there be sin without law? In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present?

¹³ Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.

Awareness and a label - same things were occuring only now there was an awareness and a name attached = accountability.

²⁰ God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant.

I like what the Bible says about Adam and Eve's awareness of being naked and their need to be covered.....once sin/law had been identified they became aware....yet they had always been naked!

We also had to learn about God's grace and that comes through His love, forgiveness, mercy, etc....without it, how would we experience it? Can we have grace without sin?

[BikeDr]

5:13b But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. This is the only part of the question that I struggle with. I agree with what others say about the rest of the ??. However, I believe that MAN did not take sin into account without the law, but God did. God did not ignore sin because there is no written law. 14a says that death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses so I believe that God held man accountable for sin before the law. However, the part that confuses me is the concept of the action of one affects the many from ?1. From this concept could it be that God was punishing all mankind for the sin of Adam until the law was given.

God gave the law so man would have the commands and would thus not have the excuse that there was no command or law broken.

[discoverlove]

When God created us, he made us with knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. Regardless if there was law, we knew we were doing wrong , or as Paul says, sinning without law. God gave us laws because sin was so great, he wanted it to be made very visible that people were sinning against what God put in our hearts as what was right. Just as before speed limits were created and there was just an honor system. We knew we should not go fast through towns and there was no law on how fast to go, but as time went on, people still went to fast because there was no law so a law had to be made. After a law was made, people were able to be in actual trouble since there was now a law. That is how our "tresspass increases". When a law is made, you are much more accountable for what you have done wrong because you knew better.

[Highohfaith]

Q2. (Romans 5:13, 20) What is Paul saying in these verses? Can there be sin without law? In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present?

God did not make us robots, He gave us freedom to chose right from wrong. Since Adam was the very first man that God created, his actions affected all of mankind, he was a representative of all who came after him. All suffered death because of Adams' propensity to sin, all mankind became sinners because Adam WAS all of mankind! Paul wants his audience to know sin has, and will be present in mankind always, despite the law. Adam invited sin into the world God created thus UNITING all of mankind to him through that sin. All of mankind was held responsible for one mans sin, Adam's! Jesus unites us all together through salvation. One man, Jesus represent all of us who accept him, unites us all through His blood. As Adam damned all of mankind to sin , all are made righteous by Jesus..

In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present? The law "spotlights" our sin. It makes it "stick out", become more apparent by putting an emphasis on how we should do things according to mosaic law which God gave to Moses.He gave the law not to save us, but to lay down a sort of guideline, not an absolute, as God knew we could not adhere to law, we had already been made sinners by Adam. The law was put in place to guide us along the way until our Savior came.The law put much more of an emphasis on how much mankind could not adhere to the law and how deep and how strong our human propensity to sin is, and how much we needed salvation! Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Matthew 5:17( NLT) "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. Matthew 5:17 NLT

Matthew 7:12 ( NIV) So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Romans 3:31 (NIV) Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

[Elema]

Q2. (Romans 5:13, 20) What is Paul saying in these verses? Can there be sin without law? In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present?

There can be sin without law thats why before the law was given to Moses, people still died.

Trespasses increase because the law is like a mirror. It should one how he really is. It brought out the sin in clear focus by being a benchmark for holy living.

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[robertprice]

This is indeed strong stuff. Before the law was given, I suppose the Ten Commandments are thought of here, there could be no accountability for the sins of the people,. Sin did indeed exist prior to the law, but in its absence, sin could not be identified as something wrong in a demonstrable way. Perhaps a person's conscience was 'the policeman' inside each person, indicating to him what was acceptable or not. Having given Law, then sin was unmasked for what it was and even the most godly of men could see that it was impossible to keep permanently. So Jesus' sacrificial death following a blameless and totally 'law-abiding' life, somehow paid the price or penalty for all of mankind's sins in the eyes of God. But of course dependent upon their having confessed and repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ fo what he had accomplished.

[lynnjaylynn731]

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I would assume the first part is expressing sin always existed and we knew this by the fall of the third of angels from heaven, and because there was instruction given when man and woman entered in the garden but because there were no laws decreed in writing, then man knew no sin. They knew they were disobedient or had wronged God in some way but it was not yet called sin.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

I am assuming the law in this passage refers to Christ and the sin was increasing that he might demonstrate the love of his father towards us through his death, burial and resurrection and so the grace refers to Christ as well. Grace meaning undeserving mercy and the favor of God our father towards us while we were yet sinners.

But I surmise that just because Grace is abounding that your sin level should be dissipating into oblivion because of that grace which if you are attached to it should be causing you to bear fruit and much more fruit.

[keytom]

Q2. (Romans 5:13, 20) What is Paul saying in these verses? Can there be sin without law? In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present?

 

Answer

Paul is stating that after one man’s sin followed sin and death for all men but just as one righteous man brought justification for all men. There can be sin without law but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Law gave sin structure made sin more apparent and understanding of its consequences and of course God’s grace.

 

 

[Debbe]

Without the law, we don't know what is wrong. But once we have the law, we are held accountable because it specifically tells us what is sin. Sin increases in that now that we have the law, sin is defined and more widely known.

[lighthouse2014]

Q2. (Romans 5:13, 20) What is Paul saying in these verses? Can there be sin without law? In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present?

What Paul is saying about these verses in Rom. 5:13, 20, is that sin was in the world before ever the law was given, but sin was not charged to men's account where there was no law to transgress.

There can be sin without the law and death held it power over all mankind.

The law expanded and increased the trespass of sin and it reigned in death, however Christ sacrifice for our sins has increased God's grace for us. So where sin increased, so Gods grace increases even more.     

[WinstonY]

Q2. (Romans 5:13, 20) What is Paul saying in these verses? Can there be sin without law? In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present?

 

It rather seems as if Paul has become  side tracked here for a moment. Verse 12 concludes:

"...and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned." (5:12) and seems to pick up  in verse 15: 1" But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"

The in between words seem to be an aside-as if he  was talking to himself.

 

Verse 13 and 14 seem to divide the age into sub periods from Adam to Moses and Moses to Christ. Before Moses Paul says that there was no law the sin was not tallied. But as we look through the Bible we see that this is hardly correct. David's sin with Beersheba  for the prophet came to call David on the sin. Cain was judged for his violent act against Abel. And death is the result of sin in the world. So yes there can be sin without the law it is just that the names the sin specifically and makes the sin more prominent.

 

Regardless the sense of Paul's argument holds in the in that he sees Adam as being the representative, the spokesperson for humankind and Jesus being human represents people as they are presented before God on judgement day. 

 

[Mary1844]

This can be a difficult verse and could mean different things to different people obviously. I interpret it like this: Sin has always been in this world, or better said, exists because Satan is ruler of this world right now. However how is one to know "sin" or "right from wrong" if there are no guidelines. If we never knew the law we could sin forever and never know it was wrong. But because the law was given our sin was brought to light. Now we have no excuse. We have been made aware of right and wrong. The law was indeed given to magnify our sinfulness and help us realize we are in need of a Savior.

[Grandma6]

I think verse 13 is referring to everyone who ever lived from Adam to Moses. They didn't have the written law yet, but they knew right from wrong and therefore sinned. Verse 20 says that we have the law to show us how sinful we are. Praise God for His abundant grace which covers all sin as this world keeps getting more evil as time goes on. And yes, there was sin without the law.

[DOIT]

Ever since creation, God has given consideration to anyone who acted against his reasoning; He calls this "sin". Lucifer and his Angelic followers were first to be disciplined for rebelling against His wishes. So yes, sin can still take place regardless of whether there is law or not. Prior to the law, there was no awareness of sin.The law simply made people aware of the wrong they were doing.

 

People had always been in sin as a result of Adams' rebellion against God, but they failed to  recognize they were doing wrong in Gods eyes. The introduction of the law clarified what was sinful and what was righteous.

With this new found awareness they began to sift out the right from the wrong and found out that they required a huge amount of correction (the bad outweighed the good).

 

The law highlighted their transgressions against God and much of what had been deemed to be acceptable behaviour was found to be sinful. In order to rectify this, they had to declare the wrong they had done

The the enormity of sinful behaviour that had been highlighted by the introduction of law led to an " increase in trespass"  as people began to conform to the expectations of God.

[Uncle Dave]

 

Q2. (Romans 5:13, 20) What is Paul saying in these verses? Can there be sin without law? In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present? http://www.joyfulheart.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=797

 

 

Paul is saying that even though the law of Moses was not yet given that sin existed in the world. Doing wrong, law or no law, is sin. Adam sinned because he did exactly what God told him not to do. Although I understand the explanation of “trespass increase” meaning that sin becomes exposed, I find it hard to understand why Paul would use the wording he used rather than just put into lay terms, unless that was just the way things were expressed in Paul’s day. Perhaps the 2^nd part of the verse is the key to understanding the concept. This is something I will meditate over the next few days. These chapters we are studying have always been stumbling blocks for me and now I see that I was reading, hoping to gain a little out of everything when I should have slowed down and spent time asking God what these things mean.

 

 

 

 

 

[Victor Adekunle]

Sin or the sinful nature predated the law. Genesis 6:5-6 describe manifestations of man's sinful nature as "evil thoughts" and "wickedness on the earth". 

The law was an attempt to realign man's (external) behaviour with God's standard and it failed miserably. We often consider the sinful nature as a passive state; however, just as God's nature "actively" opposes sin, the sinful nature also "actively" opposes true holiness. Therefore, man's knowledge of God's behavioural standard couldn't cause true repentance; rather it resulted in his sinful nature becoming more obvious. 

[Lottie]

Paul is saying that sin came into existence when Adam the first man, disobeyed God's command not to eat from the tree of life. Instead he listened to Eve who was enticed by the serpent and they both disobeyed God. Ever since then man has been under sin and the law; even before the law came into effect. Because God told me them that if they disobeyed they would die.

The Law or 10 Commandments just makes the Law more visible and powerful now. Because now we know we really have no excuse and that we are willfully being disobedient and sinful. The Law points out to us what is the right and wrong things to do and that we will be judged and pinished. It shows us how sinful we are and how righteous God is.

[Godswriter]

Q2. (Romans 5:13, 20) What is Paul saying in these verses? Can there be sin without law? In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present?

Yes there can be sin even before there was no law meaning the Commandments because when Adam and Eve sinned they actually knew when they were naked and chose to cover their nakedness and also the fact that they hid from God imputes that they knew that they had done something wrong. However both of them chose to blame anyone but themselves for the wrong done. Christ is the one who frees us from sin and Adam is the one who actually put us in chains to sin. It increases becauses people see sin for what it is but refuse to admit that they need the Lord as their Savior. 

[AmyF]

Q2. (Romans 5:13, 20) What is Paul saying in these verses? Can there be sin without law? In what sense does the "trespass increase" (5:20) when the law is present?
 

(5:13) I believe Paul is clarifying that “all have sinned” with or without the Law. It has occurred to me that the simple, but profound reality of physical death, which no one can escape, is a powerful proof of original sin affecting all creation. For the unbelieving, this causation means little, but for the Christian, death reminds us of the just penalty of our sin and the marvelous gift of justification. Presence of the Law is not required to validate sin, the fact that all die from the beginning is proof. However, sin is made more clear and evident when specific violations to particular commands are stated. The law revealed the sinfulness of sin and that mankind could not attain to God’s perfect standard (5:20). The Law also reveals the superiority of God’s grace to break the tyranny of sin’s reign through Jesus Christ (5:17). Hallelujah, what a Savior!

[Irmela]

Yes, sin is present without law. When the law is spelled out, as it were, then the deed is written out as sin (for lack of a better way to put it) or is placed under the category of sin. In this way when the Law came sin was revealed and thus seemed so much more. 

Before it was deeds done. When Law is there it is sins done. 

 

Many of the answers spelled it out so well and so much better. One of the first ones was pickledilly on Sept 21 2008. 

[Krissi]

Yes, there can be sin without the law.

After the angels fell – Satan and his demons – sin existed in the heavenlies. The earth had not yet been created but sin was already present. There was a time, however, prior to Satan’s fall, where there was no sin and, I believe, in the end, there will not be sin again.

Post-creation, it is my understanding that the fall of Adam involved more than just the sins of individuals, but included a distortion in nature herself, a perversion of public institutions particularly the governments and a disordering of all social relationships. Of course, Adam’s fall severed, though not completely, a person from God because of sin. Though we could not approach God as sinners, there remained a residue of our created goodness in the world as well as in ourselves, which made possible the desire to know and love God.

The Mosaic law is like a giant flashlight that illuminated and focused on human sin so it could not be ignored or forgotten. Thus, when focused on like this, sin appears to increase; the law constantly refers to it. As Sadiejee puts it, “the law brings sin to the surface.”

[Susan MacLeod]

In a world without law, there would be no awareness of sin (except though individual conscience) because there would be no "right" or "wrong". I think of the animal kingdom, where there are no laws as such (except "pack"laws); animals have no conception of right or wrong, unless they are taught it. When law came into being, Man became aware of wrong, or sin. If someone did something which was "against the law", he would face a penalty. Thus, where there is law trespass increases because certain actions have been declared, under the law, to be wrong.