Q3. Died with Christ - Myth or Reality?

[Don W]

This is both a figurative

[poetmom]

Our death to sin may not immediately change the "look" of our lives--we may very well persist in the same sinful patterns for quite some time. But our status changes when we come alongside Jesus in this death. We are "counted" as alive in Christ, even when we mess up. This is a very confusing topic, though. My grasp definitely feels tentative! Pauls says we are supposed to move on as new creations. But why do so many people stay in the old life? Does that mean they never really died with Christ in the first place? Or that they are just going to need some more time? Just trying harder and harder not to sin rarely seems to work. We need to perceive ourselves as completely new creations. I think conforming to habits is one of the biggest temptations and difficulties in our society. Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion, and bodies at rest tend to stay at rest. Superficial fixes work only temporarily. We need a radical change in perception of ourselves. When we die with Christ, we are free to start over.

[s8nfighter]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

Yes Paul is referring to a figurative death to sin. He is also referring to an actual point in personal history. To say that I have never died to sin and been reborn to Christ is to say that I have no point in time that I "believe" and therefore have no future. If I had not been born again of the heart, mind, and soul my desires of the flesh, my thoughts, and my purpose would have remained the same. With these three things remaining the same my destination would also remain the same. But with a rebirth of the way I think, the things I desire, and the goals I set I am now heaven bound.

Darrell

[lynette66]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

This is Jesus' actual death and our figurative death. Our connection with Jesus allows us to join Him in Heaven, but at the same time, our figurative death to sin waxes and wanes, as we don't stay completely free from our transgressions through life. We wander off the path with Jesus occasionally, but if we try to keep Him in sight, we get back on the path.

[Paul H]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

I think that Paul is talking about a real historical death, namely the death of Jesus on the cross with which, when we became Christians, we became connected. Christ died for our sins, and therefore when we become connected with Christ's death, we necessarily die to our own sin. There is nothing figurative about this. Christ died for our sin in a very real and physical sense. When we become Christians, we are joined in that death (obviously not in a physical sense; we don't physically die, but in a spiritual sense) and that is not a figurative joining in death it is a real spiritual joining. In doing that, we die to our sins, I would say in both a physical and in a spiritual way. In other words, the combination of the real physical death of Jesus and our spiritual joining in that death produces in us both a physical and spiritual death to our old selves and to sin. Better still, just as Christ was actually raised from the dead in a real physical sense ("death no longer has dominion over Him") so we are raised in both a physical and spiritual sense from our death to sin to "walk in newness of life".

Wow, the more I get into this the more I realize what a wonderful revelation this passage is... but so complicated!!

[Vaiden Rochelle]

Hi, Dr. Ralph,

This is a challenging question! Paul is referring to both. Paul wants us to realize that we need to die to sin and tbe desire to sin. Then, our sins must be buried, or forgiven as the actual immersion symbolizes. The death Paul is talking about is Jesus's death on Calvary and also the death to our sins and to the self who wants to sin.

This death becomes our own by us living the kind of Christian life Jesus wants and needs us to live. None of this is nonsense but reality. Conducting the way we live our lives is proof that all of this is real.

[Commissioned]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

Here Paul is not referring to a figurative "death" to sin. His reference is to our actual "death" to sin. This death became our own when we were united with Christ in His death on Golgotha. This is not just theological mumbo-jumbo, the reality is that in faith and baptism we were crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be done away with that we should no longer be slaves to sin

[Charles Sanger]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

Paul stated that we who are baptised in the name of Jesus Christ are also baptised into his dead. I think Paul is referring to figurative death of mankind to sin and a historical/actual death of Jesus Christ for us to clear us of that sin. (This does not mean that there is no more sin, but rather that sin does not have any power over us.)

[Antwan]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

In this Bible study, we learn that Paul, in talking about death to sin, is referring to being united in the death of Christ that will result in the power to crush sin; I believe this, but I also believe that Paul is talking about putting to death the old way we were living before we came to Christ in faith. It is a reality spiritually; Christ's death and the blood He shed has the power to redeem our lives and cause us to die to the old way of life, but it does take time (or at least it is taking time in my case).

[jon burke]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

http://www.joyfulheart.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=802

[Marloes]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

We're not dead and we also still sin.

So we're not figurative death to sin.

Now Jesus did die about 2000 years ago.

With baptism we get united in His death.

This means that we're not held responsible for our sins.

In this way, we're dead to the consequences of sin.

[Paul G]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death?

ANS - He is referring to a historical, actual death, which was not only physical, but there was a spiritual victory over sin on the cross. When we came to know Christ we united with Him, and in our identification with Him, sin in our own life was crucified.

Whose death is he talking about?

ANS - It was Christ's death on calvary!

How does this death become our own?

ANS - When we accept Him as Lord and savior, and when we become baptized we also identify with his death.

To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

ANS - Christ's death on the cross was fortold since the time of Adam, and prophecy foretold it. It actually happened, and now through our faith in Him we become a part of it, and accept His power into our life. "The same spirit that raised Christ from the dead, dwells in us. He will quicken our mortal bodies."

[Foofee's Nana]

Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death?

Paul is referring to our death to sin...not yet our physical death....but the act of burying ourselves with Jesus and putting way those sin desires.

Whose death is he talking about?

He is talking about our death of wants and sin...to be one with Chirst is to cut that tie. Christ ook our sine and blame on the corss, we now die with Him.

How does this death become our own?

We have to put away those things that we wanted before, we are now new creatures in Christ.

To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

I think this is a reality for me.....I walk with Christ Jesus because of my love and desire to be more like Him. I have follwed Him in believers baptism as a little girl and still want to walk with Him and serve my Jesus. He is as real today as He was all of those years ago when I sat in a little red chair in Sunday School class and wondered what this pull on my heart was.

[Old Jerry]

Paul is referring to the historical actual death of Jesus. His death becomes our own when we are baptized. It has have some basis in reality because we really don

[wifee]

6.2 we died to sin, Jesus

[Ramon]

Answer:Death to sin,means dead to our old sinful self,and since we are dead on our old self we no longer,co exist with him,and in fact is freed from the bondage,due to our Faith in Christ Jesus.(Romans 6:1- For he that is dead is freed from sin.)

Our old self are nailed in the cross,and Paul is referring to this

[Moody Grad]

This death is the historical death of Christ. When I come to saving faith, I join in Christ's death. I died with Christ on the cross and sin is done away with in my life.

[rosegarden]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

- Paul is referring to a historical actual death.

- Talking about Christ's death on the cross.

- By being Baptized into Christ, this death becomes our own

- This is not theological mumbo-jumbo it does have some basis in reality because being dead to sin, we become alive to God through Jesus Christ.

[ljmnkscart]

Paul here is talking about the actual, historical death of Jesus Christ. The day that Christ died on the cross for our sins. Christ's death become our own when we confess to Jesus our sinful nature and ask Him to help us to become like Him, to start striving to live a life that is pleasing to God. This is not just mumbo-jumbo to the saved. When we see the change that the union that we have with Christ in His death and resurrection brings about in our lives, THAT IS REALITY TO US

[Guitar Jim]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death?

What we have here is one of the "mysteries" of the Christian life. One of the so called deep secrets of Christianity. In a mystical kind of way we, as believers in Jesus Christ who have confessed faith in Him and have been baptized, actually died with Christ, were buried with Him and rose again with Him on the third day. According to this passage we not only die to our old life but share in Christ's death and resurrection.

Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own?

Paul is talking about Jesus's death. We share in that death in our baptism. Paul also talks about being crucified with Christ and sharing in His resurrection. Jesus's death becomes our own death as I wrote above in a way we don't fully comprehend, hence the mystery of it.

To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

I'll go out on a limb here and say that it's all much mumbo-jumbo to the new Christian. In all my decades of being a Christian I have never been confronted with this Scripture in this way before. Not in sermons and not in Bible study or Sunday School. Such teaching as this is very hard to take on board. Just because the Bible says it and we should believe it doesn't make it any easier to apply to our hearts and minds.

When I was baptized I underwent some counseling beforehand to understand what I was going to be doing and why. Baptism to me back then was simply following my Lord and Savior through the waters of Baptism in obedience to His command. It symbolized my dying to my old life and following Jesus' teachings in my new Christian life . . . Nothing more. Now I'm confronted with this whole other application of my baptism to my life and it indeed does seem kind of like mumbo-jumbo. It requires of me a paradigm shift in my thinking and understanding. And I'm a Baptist myself!

Does it have some basis in reality? The answer to that is to say that as far as we can see into the Spiritual world and accept the realities of things unseen, which is one of the characteristics of faith after all, it will become real to us. Just as sanctification is a gradual process, I suspect that accepting and applying this teaching to our hearts, minds, and lives will take some time. Eventually we will hopefully be able to have a firm conviction and unshakable belief in our hearts that we have indeed shared Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection in the act of being baptized. Until then . . .

To be brutally honest, I often feel like I'm still waiting for that new heart and that obedient spirit that I was told I'd get when I gave my life to Christ. The old life is constantly being thrust at me and I'm challenged every single day to stay on the path of righteousness. I try my best not to be conformed to this world and to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ and I pray daily for the strength and ability to do these things. Guess what? That help never comes and I find myself in Paul's position that he outlined later in Romans 7:14-25. I do what I know I should not do and actually don't really want to do anyway.

Comments, anyone?

[Chichii]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death?

He's referring to a historical, actual death.

Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

Paul is referring to the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. It becomes our own death to sin when we are baptised and enter in to union with Christ. It does have basis in reality because this happens in the spiritual and not in the physical. Just as we all are tainted by Adam's sin in the garden, Jesus's sacrifice washes us clean of sin and gives us the ability to live free of the control by sin.

[Chichii]

Comments, anyone?

Hi Guitar Jim

I so feel you on the paradigm shift for the mind. Like you I did go through immersion baptism because that was what Jesus did. It is a new frontier looking at these verse this way but I do know that the spiritual is real and that what we see in the natural is a product of whatever has happened in the spiritual.

Living as a new creature is hard, I just like you am still struggling with old habits and sometimes even ones that I thought were long dead start creeping up. But I have faith that Christ will not abandon me especially since the study before this (Rom 5:9) so who am I to give up on myself. So when I feel bad I just dust myself off, confess my sin or repent of the thought, read more of the Word and begin again. I Know and the Bible tells me that sanctification is a process so like you though I struggle now I believe all of the Bible and it tells me I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. I just believe and wait for one day when I can truly say that though I have not fully apprehended I have fought a good fight.

Hang in there, you're not alone.

[Barbara A. Lee]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

(Romans 6:1-7) Is Paul referring to a figurative

[sue57]

THis refers to Jesus death taking the punishment for our sin. When we follow him we choose to live the way he wants no longer just for ourselves. In this way we die to sin, we are no longer controled by sin, but can be controlled by God thus living a new life. We don't have to suffer with guilt and shame because Jesus sacrifice took care of all of that, enabling us to be in right relationship with God.

[royk]

Q3. (Romans 6:1-7) Is ingPaul referring to a figurative "death" to sin, or to a kind of historical, actual death? Whose death is he talking about? How does this death become our own? To what degree is this just theological mumbo-jumbo or does it have some basis in reality?

"just as Christ was raised,... we too may live a new life"eart

Yes, this is real, it is something I can feel in my body. I believe it with all my mind, and heart. Praise God!

"5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin