Q5. Women in Ministry

[Krissi]

I'm very pleased that Pastor Ralph, boldly, plunged into a contentious topic -- kudos! In response, and with much less boldness, I'm going to speak autobiographically:

When I was in my 20s, I was gung-ho women's rights and equality -- third wave feminism -- from a Christian perspective. But then I had kids and discovered that my boys were quite different than my girls. My boys simply refused to play with "girl toys." Similarly, my girls thought trucks and trains were boring. It occurred to me, at that time, that there may be something to "gender differentiation." 

In early middle age, I remained observant but uncommitted on the topic. My husband at that time was a very weak man -- I am divorced -- so I was forced, against my will, to discipline the boys, handle the finances (though he was a bond broker) and other more masculine tasks. 

I was torn because my interests were never trad female so I very much wanted to make my way in the big world. I didn't like being at home. When the last kid finally flew out of the nest, I literally rejoiced. Free at last! I had used child-rearing time to work on degrees, in part to salve the tedium of child-rearing, but even that wasn't enough to stave off my desire to have a bigger life.

BUT ... and here's the "but" ... it had become clear to me that men and women were different, and though I didn't want to exaggerate these differences into a Mars/Venus sort of dichotomy, seeing women in military uniform, for instance, made me wonder if the extreme egalitarianism of our society was reality-based. I started pondering the scriptures, particularly Paul's prohibitions against women in leadership, but frankly, given my skill set, as they say, I didn't want to go to a church where I'd be immediately shoved into the nursery to change diapers, just because I'm female.

Fast forward. About five years ago, I stopped cutting my hair. As long as I pulled it back neatly, it looked acceptable. In the deep crevices of my mind, I wondered if God was asking me to do this. I still don't know. I also wear hair coverings which are subtle and unlike the Amish kappas, or whatever they're called.

Fast forward again. About six months ago, I started attending an all-women's church after a life-time of attending Episcopalian or Anglican churches, though my heritage is Quaker. The pastor and all leaders of this church are female.

We meet twice weekly, in the evenings, since about half the women work. Once a month, the church invites men to worship at a special evening service. Most of these men are spouses but single men also come. This created a problem for me. In the last two months, I have been asked out by men after the meeting -- I refused. Note that the church dynamic completely changed when men were included. Instead of feeling free to worship and talk as I so chose, I felt spiritually restricted. Frankly, I never expected this.

Perhaps this is because I'm single. Single women are like an extra thumb or a sixth-finger in a trad church ... a weird appendage that doesn't work or look right. When I had been attending an anglican church, I felt incredible social pressure to marry but never felt that the men I was pushed toward were God's will. 

Going to the all-women's church eliminated this problem completely, truth be told. 

BUT ... and here's another "but" ... I still don't think it's healthy to divide a congregation by gender like this. I'm not sure it's scriptural, either. It is comfortable, but God demands obedience, not ease, so if God leads me back into a trad church, I'll obey with trepidation. Why?Firstly, the sorts of hyper charismatic churches that permit women to teach/preach/heal/prophecy/etc. also tend to have women in leadership. On the other hand, secondly, hyper-liberal churches also have women in leadership. Most of these liberal women have permissive and unbiblical views of sex and homosexuality. I vehemently disagree with them over this. 

Some women have solved this problem by splitting the difference, claiming submission at home but not in church -- others reverse this, submitting at church but not at home ... in practice. To me, there must be consistency. If women are created differently than men, which obviously they are, then what is the consistent and logical outcome of this created difference? How much overlap is permitted? If a woman is a stellar preacher or leader, should she be confined to children or to other women? If a woman is obviously gifted, as Pastor Ralph notes, shouldn't she feel a God-given obligation to exercise His gifts?

I've also noticed that men, via testosterone, naturally climb toward the top of the pile. They're aggressive, in other words. The other day I was looking at a pic of Russian military generals. They were very gruff and masculine, a sad comparison to the "soyboys" in Western militaries and State Departments. They had gravitas. Didn't need to prove themselves. And there wasn't a woman nearby. As I looked at this image I thought it looked natural, in a positive sense of being the way God ordained humans to be. Men fight -- women support fighters from way behind the lines.

Perhaps the church has a similar dynamic which may explain  why Paul wrote as he did. His teachings are far too short. I have to read between the lines. His readers must have know what he was getting at -- I can only guess.

Sorry for being so long-winded. Bottom line? I don't really know what's right and wrong for women in the church. I don't think we've done a good job thinking through this issue as a wider body of Christ and am willing to let go of the issue -- if some churches ordain women and congregants are spiritually led and fed by her, so be it; if other churches only ordain men and congregants are spiritual led and fed by him, so be it.

[Zanele Tlhakanelo]

The Word of God in Acts 10:34 -36 says that God shows no partially and if you go down with these verses says whoever fears Him  and works righteousness is accepted by Him. My understanding is that God has imparted in all our us spiritual gifts and we are to use them to glorify Him, both men and women alike. In Ephesus in particular, there could have been a problem that Paul noted which included their dress code but that did not mean that most women were gullible. 

My view is that there should not be any segregation in terms of who should preach or teach because our giftings are different. I do not think that Anna the Prophetess mentioned in Luke 2:36-38 was just a figure not carrying out the instructions of God to both men and women. As such, I support that women should be allowed to preach and teach the Word of God as long as that is done following the precepts of God.

[Sister Evelyn]

Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century?

Paul did not forbid women from ever teaching. Paul commended co worker Priscilla because she taught Apollos, the great preacher (Acts 18:24-26). Paul mentions many other women who held positions of responsibility in the church. I today's society there are many wonderful women who were blessed with the gift of teaching through the Holy Spirit. Teaching is one of the Five Fold Ministry.

Paul was very likely prohibiting the Ephesian women because they didn't yet have enough knowledge or experience.

 

How did you support your view?

I support this view of women teaching, because the Holy Spirit has given us many different gifts to build up the church. I was a Sunday School Bible teacher and as of today I was blessed to continue to teach guided by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In the Bible their were many women that was blessed with the gift of teaching and leadership. We can see an example in the book of Judges how God used Deborah and many other women. 

[crissy464]

Back in those times in the beginning of the early church women were’t respected like they are today. The man was head of the household. Women were to serve the men. But if they put the women to teach the children then why not let them teach the congregation? Women weren’t trained in Scripture, I'm sure they taught their children. 

[t-c]

Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view?

The way it reads in verse 12 is that women are not allowed to teach men or assume a position in the church that has authority over men. It doesn’t say that they can’t teach, just that they can’t teach men.They could teach women and children. 
Also, it doesn’t say they can’t have a position of authority, just not a position that put them over men. There are many positions within the church that aren’t over men.                                 
Women because of their faith, intelligence and wisdom have a lot to say about what is taught as well as the way a church is administered. A believing husband will trust a believing wife to give good counsel on matters of faith. Whether it is in the area of teaching, administration or serving at church, she is a valuable asset in determining the proper course to take. Men and women complement one another. A wife’s different perspective on complicated issues are invaluable to her husband. And, of course, vise versa. God created men and women’s minds to work differently for a reason. They are best when they can work together.

[Niyonka16]

Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul’s instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century?

ANSWER: Certain people from within the church have departed from the true teaching of the gospel, have become quarrelsome and argumentative, and are propagating doctrines that are erroneous. Paul was addressing a particular problem specific to the church at Ephesus in which false teaching was resulting in inappropriate behavior. Paul was not giving a universal order to all women of all time not to teach nor have authority over a man, but was ordering that women do not assume superiority over men or promote false teachings. Women should learn first, being educated in the faith before they teach.

It is clear from Paul’s other letters that Paul supported women teachers and leaders. Surely, 1 Timothy 2:11-15 is not prescriptive to women for all time if Paul also commends women leaders and teachers. 1 Timothy 2 does not at all teach subordination of women. And neither does the rest of the Bible. Women were created by God as co-heirs, equals to one another, and image bearers, just as men were. Women are welcomed and encouraged to learn theology just as men are. Women are allowed to teach right and proper theology to their brothers and sisters-in-Christ just as men are. And women are dearly loved and cared for by God just as men are.

How do you support your view?

ANSWER: What this text means to me is: …  There are some women who feel that they were called to teach and preach and lead. And I know many who are absolutely able to do it. But our obedience is to God, not to a sense of calling or ability. That is a hard teaching. But when we go back to God and harmonious creation He formed, I recall that it is we humans who broke it, not Him. And we now live with the brokenness as best we can until He comes again. Overall this passage is a pastoral outworking of a created functionality that was illustrated to us by Jesus. Within Jesus’ outworking though, He did not exclude or silence women. He welcomed them and gave them a voice and a place in His gospel message. There’s a call for both men and women to fulfill their God-given roles and submit to HIM. There is either submission to Christ or there is rebellion against Him. There is no middle ground.

[Clelie]

God created man first and gave him dominion over the fish, the birds,over the cattle ,over all the earth and over every creeping thing. God gave that authority to man. Everywhere in the Bible men were chosen to accomplish God,s will. Men were to be the head of the family. Men were chosen to lead in different plans God gave them.They were to be responsible to carry all of God’s commands . Failures to do so bring chatisements that affect the entire clan or family. Authority that they enjoy brings  either blessing or cursing following how the man has carried out the commands of God. 
I agree man should be the one to be used in the church of Christ to teach, exhort etc but where man is incompetent or fails to use the authority God has given him, he has failed to be the head. That is what the 21st  century church has changed the established order of God.

 

[Funmilayo]

Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view?

*Paul's instructions about women teaching & leading in the 21st church should be modified in its application, with reference to Joel.2:28-29, which says :

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit."

*Since it's the same Holy Spirit that came upon all flesh, irrespective of gender,& said " ....your sons & your daughters shall prophesy", spirit- filled women, I believe ,have the mandate to preach & be leaders in the church.

[Eldress Rowe]

I do not believe that Paul intend to establish a blueprint for church structure but to deal with the circumstances at the church in Ephesus.  We must try to understand Paul's message for his original readers before we can draw a conclusion from the passage for the sake of women in the church today. Ephesus was known as a center of pagan religion.  Maybe the women were attempting to gain improper authority over the men in the worship center, maybe some were teaching heresy, or they may have doctrinally naive, whatever the cause Paul's main purpose was to assist a church suffering from heretical teaching. Paul commanded the women to learn whether through practical experience, formal instructions, or through inquiry for women should be educated as well as the men.  Despite the negative connotation it does not entail not speaking but implies respect or a lack of disagreement.  When Paul commands women to learn in silence he is commanding them to be students who respect and affirm their teacher's conviction. with full submission implies an attitude of receptivity not submission to their husbands or male church leadership.  Instead of learning from false teacher learn from those who speak the truth.  Because their was a low level of education among women at that time the ban was temporary until the women educational level was sufficiently raised so that they could discern truth and error.  Some believe that the ban involved only the women in Ephesus rather than women universally.  Paul was not prohibiting women from preaching, praying, having authority, nor pastoring, but that they study to show themselves approved unto God, a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth.  The same applies in the twenty-first century.

[Nicolaas A.P. Mostert]

Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15)

How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century?

In Paul's time woman in different cultures were treaded different, even till now. The difference here is that in those time woman was only connected or associated with her house not outside or publicly. Woman were channeled by instruction to do what was good for her household. Man at all time, it were only a few standing up to spread the pure WORD of FATHER GOD. Today it is still the same more woman in church than man but we pray that this will change in due time. To used a SPIRIT FILLED woman in GOD's Kingdom to excel HIS purpose towards us, HOLY SPIRIT will used the woman or man that is willing to step out.     

How do you support your view?

The SPIRIT OF our FATHER GOD is within all of us that is Believers in CHRIST JESUS. GOD's SPIRIT don't make comparison who is who, we are equal in GOD's eyes GOD is looking for a willing obedience heart that can worship HIM in SPIRIT and truth.  

[Katy]

Q5. I think Paul’s main reason for not wanting women to teach was probably their lack of education and training. Also some were obviously causing some kind of unrest with their calling out at inappropriate times. Today women have opportunities to be educated and trained to teach just like men. In our church the Pastor or Elders preach during services, and this is reserved for the men. Women are involved in teaching in women’s groups, children’s clubs etc. This is accepted and works well. However I do think if no trained man was available, say in a missionary situation then a woman should teach. I think it should depend on the gifts people are given.There is no point in man or woman teaching if they don’t know the Scriptures and don’t have the gift of teaching from God. 

[haar]

Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view?

A5.

This issue of women working especially teaching and holding leadership positions in the church should be prayerfully handled to allow the Holy Spirit to guide in decisions on such sensitive issues.

I however tend to lean towards agreeing that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are also available to women. I therefore think that women who are given the gifts of teaching or blessed with other gifts, should be allowed to use such gifts in the Church.
 

[Jonathan Edwards]

Apostle Paul wants to keep order in the Ephesian church.   His vision of the Church as the Body of Christ is very deep.   Paul didn't want spurious teachings to spread like gangrene: the Ephesians were new believers that came out of Greek mystery cults, and were exposed to Judaic gnostic philosophical subjects.   Paul had just cause to instill in Timothy the immense value of order in the local assembly.   Women in Ephesus we're converts from these false religions, newly baptized but still not mature in the true faith.   The oracle of Delphi was headed by a woman that would go into trances, and give oracular utterances.  Paul believed that church order is imperative; local church must be protected from false prophets that would get naive congregants to accept "babblings" or "vain imaginations".

Yes, Christ is the head of the church.   Males only should head the local assembly.  Women do have tendencies to cause strifes and spread doctrinal errors. Paul wouldn't tolerate this.  Timothy had a holy mission to contend for the Faith during a difficult period in the Church.  He couldn't risk more problems by allowing women to spread false doctrine or create splits in the local assembly.

Women really should not be pastoring men.  A cornucopia of problems awaiting!  Men need to be under a male Bishop/pastor; vice versa for the ladies.   I do believe that there are cases where God ordains women for special missions that require Charismatic leadership: St Catherine of Siena, St Theresa of Avila,and the women leaders of the late 19th century Holiness movement.   None of these women had a spirit of pride and strife with the intent of overuling legitimate male church leadership.

[Old Jerry]

I think that they women should be allowed to teach and lead in the church because they are educated and they can understand the bible. They sometimes have a different prospective of the interpretation of the bible and think that if we are to understand the bible better then we should listen to them and compare what they are saying to the bible.

[Debra Grant]

Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view?

1.  My personal view is women can and are qualified to teach and lead in the church. Paul’s instruction to the Ephesus women not to lead is because women at that time had no educational knowledge, that is why they were easily deceived by the false teaching.

2. In the 21st century church mostly women are well educated and gifted. Men are no better than women because both are learning and well needed as the other. If it was not for women, spiritual learning would not be what it is today. There are mostly women in the church and lesser men.

 

[hanks]

Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15)

How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view?

We know from Scripture that a fundamental principle of God’s dealings with mankind is that man has been given authority over the woman. This in no way suggests that she is inferior in any way. It determines the different roles each has to play; as determined by God. There were also unique conditions in the early church at Ephesus at that time. There were false teachers from within the church as well as from the outside. There was in-fighting, and women usurping authority which also resulted in fighting. The women at that time were suppressed and mostly illiterate; the church had to deal with paganism; unholy leaders; and godless living patterns; among other things. It is with this in mind that Paul gave instructions as to the role of women in the church. Perhaps all or some of the above conditions do not apply to most of our churches today. We must remember that all the promises, commands, and blessings of the New Testament apply equally to women and men. We must also consider that the Holy Spirit has gifted some woman with exceptional gifts for teaching and leadership - it is not for us to deny them utilising these gifts. I think it all boils done to Paul not wanting the Ephesian women to teach because of the lack of knowledge and/or experience. This made them vulnerable to false teachings (2 Tim 3:6). He also mentioned women flaunting themselves by wearing unsuitable clothing (1 Tim 2:9).

[Lenore]

This is a hotbed of discussion and there are so many factors to consider. 

Women are to be entirely submissive that means when their husband and in the case of single women like myself spiritual authority like their pastors, they should listen and not argue. 

There needs to be a level of trust because we as women are to listen without question.

This is why it's so important to have godly men in positions of leadership in the church.

All of these instructions are not to control women but protect women as the receivers that we are. Men transmit messages, women are to receive the message and carry it out.