McCollum Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I beleive that Paul instructions about women teaching and leading in the Church for the twenty-first century, is that womens are to be educated on God's word, in other words womens must be willing for God Holy Spirit to lead, teach, direct, rule and guide their every lives and actions, and must be about doing the will of God and not their own or someone elses. I support my view by acknowledging that God uses whom ever and when ever He pleases to get the true gospel applyed. We all come in contact with false teaching and the opportunity to stand up for God True Gospel showed up, and it was the time to stand on the truth wheather you was a man or women , God uses all mankind to spread His Gospel and womens are included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkey1020 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? In our church, we have a man for a pastor, but his mother will sometimes lead the service if he is unable to be there. I believe that as long as the service is led with respect to the Lord, and the person is not teaching false teachings then it is okay for a woman to teach, but the focus has to be on the Lord and not on her or something to that effect. The church and society today is a lot more slack on woman in public and the home. A lot of households are led successfully by woman. The woman does teaching even if she doesn't realize it, by raising her children and setting examples for them. In my family, my mom always stayed home and my dad went to work. He worked long hours just to keep us clothed and fed, we never had much, but we knew that mom was always there when we needed her. Woman today play a different role in society than years ago. I worked for many years after I got married, i even raised my son for 3 years alone until I met my husband now. He never liked me to work, but it was necessary in order for us to provide a home and food for our 2 kids. I am unable to work now because of my stroke and seizures that I have, things are tough with just one income, my son has had to go live with relatives and I do get SSI, but in our family, my husband is the leader of the house. Nothing gets approved without his approval and we all look to him for guidance. My belief is that the man, if there is one around, should be the leader of the family and the wife should follow the man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heart for God Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I am a women and I came to know the Lord in a very Charismatic Christian setting. I believe that Paul is right when he says that women should be submitted to their husbands. My experience has been that there are many gifted women who know and are able to teach; however, they need to be submitted to their husbands first. Above that they need to have Jesus in the center of their lives, then all outflowing from them will be "Christ Like". I have had several bad experiences where women tried to run the household and their ministries. The damage to their ministries caused division and harm to others. They become very controlling and hurting others spiritually and verbally. As someone who loves the Lord, my heart grieved for those women who tried to be the "head". This was not God's plan. I believe that Paul was right for that time. The culture of that day did not allow for women to learn, they were illiterate. Today that is not the case. Many women are very well educated both in the schools and in church. Therefore, if a woman is first submissive to God and her mate and when the priorities are right in her heart then her teaching is sound. This is truly a balance that is not easily met. As a woman we tend to be manipulative and authorative expecially if we are strong willed. Our hearts and minds must be submitted to the will of the Father first. Then to our mates. This makes for a unified and loving relationship to both. From that sound teaching can begin as the love in our hearts teaches others that submission is a strong character trait which releases the love of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaps Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? My observations of family life indicate that children will follow the lead of fathers before mothers. If they identify that father is behaving abominably and unjustly, the may take the mother's part against him, but the natural thing is to think like father. It is like he is the bricks of the building while mother is the mortar. It's the brickwork that you notice (which doesn't at all minimise the part that mothers have to play. Bricks without mortar don't hang together at all well!) This is how we are made and that can't change. So it is with the church. The leadership of men is crucial because their effect on society is so profound. In particular men need to be able to look to men for their role models. The church should be structured along family lines so that elders should be first successful at bringing up their own children, then they are able to be considered as leaders in church. So church life is patterned on family life and needs male leadership. Women's role in church is as it is in family life, to surround and add structure to the brickwork. The bricks add their strength to the structure. I think that if everyone understands this principle of how families and churches work best, and supports it, the churches will thrive better. We have seen feminism at work in the community, and the retreat of men to the background in a female dominated society. I praise God that that influence seems to be diminishing, but middle-aged men these days seem a bit lost as to how to fit in because of it. The male groupings seem to be missing as females engineered their way into every male bastion, while maintaining their own female groups. I have to go looking for a church with the right balance of male role modelling and connection. It's actually hard to find. This is not to diminish the female role. IT is simply that the roles are distinct and different, and a church built of mortar only will not gain the attention of one built with both bricks and mortar. The male role is attention getting and that is his advantage. For this reason I want my church to have effective male leadership. A man needs a male role model and a female one will not do. Wherever there is good male role modelling there will be plenty of females "sticking around" because this is the nature of things! Genesis 3:16 says "Your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you." This doesn't necessarily mean he will be the boss. It means that women will always crave male leadership, and needing it, will submit to it even through pain (as of childbirth). This is a consequence of the fall. For this reason men are required to be very gentle with their wives who are so vulnerable. Hence a man who has been successful in maintaining a healthy, functional, contented family can then be a candidate for eldership/leadership in church. I believe women can be appointed to deliver teachings and sermons, especially but not exclusively to female groups, but the church leadership that is successful will be the male that is attentive to everybody and protective of the sensitivities of women. Male who enjoy the teachings of certain women can learn from them, but still need male role models to be real men! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxanne Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? WOMEN SHOULD BE LEAD BY THE HOLY SPIRIT .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxanne Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? WOMEN SHOULD BE LEAD BY THE HOLY SPIRIT .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxanne Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? WOMEN SHOULD BE LEAD BY THE HOLY SPIRIT .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerraw20 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? Wow, this is a tough issue do to its sensitivity. To start out with I think that this is primarily instruction to woman. Hopefully the men will not have to confront disruptive behavior. If the wife asks her husband first it wil be edifying for there relationship. Both in sharing and in building up her husband by showing confidence in his leadership. There are places where woman teach but not to have men under her submission. I personally love the teachings of many woman like Nancy liegh De Moss. Men and woman are so different that it works better to have woman primarily teaching woman and men over men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerraw20 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I am a women and I came to know the Lord in a very Charismatic Christian setting. I believe that Paul is right when he says that women should be submitted to their husbands. My experience has been that there are many gifted women who know and are able to teach; however, they need to be submitted to their husbands first. Above that they need to have Jesus in the center of their lives, then all outflowing from them will be "Christ Like". I have had several bad experiences where women tried to run the household and their ministries. The damage to their ministries caused division and harm to others. They become very controlling and hurting others spiritually and verbally. As someone who loves the Lord, my heart grieved for those women who tried to be the "head". This was not God's plan. I believe that Paul was right for that time. The culture of that day did not allow for women to learn, they were illiterate. Today that is not the case. Many women are very well educated both in the schools and in church. Therefore, if a woman is first submissive to God and her mate and when the priorities are right in her heart then her teaching is sound. This is truly a balance that is not easily met. As a woman we tend to be manipulative and authorative expecially if we are strong willed. Our hearts and minds must be submitted to the will of the Father first. Then to our mates. This makes for a unified and loving relationship to both. From that sound teaching can begin as the love in our hearts teaches others that submission is a strong character trait which releases the love of God. This is a GREAT post. Its hard for a guy to address this topic without being considered sexist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerraw20 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I am a women and I came to know the Lord in a very Charismatic Christian setting. I believe that Paul is right when he says that women should be submitted to their husbands. My experience has been that there are many gifted women who know and are able to teach; however, they need to be submitted to their husbands first. Above that they need to have Jesus in the center of their lives, then all outflowing from them will be "Christ Like". I have had several bad experiences where women tried to run the household and their ministries. The damage to their ministries caused division and harm to others. They become very controlling and hurting others spiritually and verbally. As someone who loves the Lord, my heart grieved for those women who tried to be the "head". This was not God's plan. I believe that Paul was right for that time. The culture of that day did not allow for women to learn, they were illiterate. Today that is not the case. Many women are very well educated both in the schools and in church. Therefore, if a woman is first submissive to God and her mate and when the priorities are right in her heart then her teaching is sound. This is truly a balance that is not easily met. As a woman we tend to be manipulative and authorative expecially if we are strong willed. Our hearts and minds must be submitted to the will of the Father first. Then to our mates. This makes for a unified and loving relationship to both. From that sound teaching can begin as the love in our hearts teaches others that submission is a strong character trait which releases the love of God. This is a GREAT post. Its hard for a guy to address this topic without being considered sexist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerraw20 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I am a women and I came to know the Lord in a very Charismatic Christian setting. I believe that Paul is right when he says that women should be submitted to their husbands. My experience has been that there are many gifted women who know and are able to teach; however, they need to be submitted to their husbands first. Above that they need to have Jesus in the center of their lives, then all outflowing from them will be "Christ Like". I have had several bad experiences where women tried to run the household and their ministries. The damage to their ministries caused division and harm to others. They become very controlling and hurting others spiritually and verbally. As someone who loves the Lord, my heart grieved for those women who tried to be the "head". This was not God's plan. I believe that Paul was right for that time. The culture of that day did not allow for women to learn, they were illiterate. Today that is not the case. Many women are very well educated both in the schools and in church. Therefore, if a woman is first submissive to God and her mate and when the priorities are right in her heart then her teaching is sound. This is truly a balance that is not easily met. As a woman we tend to be manipulative and authorative expecially if we are strong willed. Our hearts and minds must be submitted to the will of the Father first. Then to our mates. This makes for a unified and loving relationship to both. From that sound teaching can begin as the love in our hearts teaches others that submission is a strong character trait which releases the love of God. This is a GREAT post. Its hard for a guy to address this topic without being considered sexist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirt1 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? We need first of all need to have a right relationship with the Lord. If we are married our husband is the head. We need to be the example to our children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin D Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I believe women should not be put into leadership postitions in the church. That responsibility should be for the men. I think it is extremely difficult in today's society for women to understand their role as Christians. Society does not teach submission and subjection. The elderly women of my day that were Godly examples are almost non-existent today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
servant for Christ Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I think it should be applied very carefully. I have been raised in church all my life. I have had women Sunday School teachers, and I have heard women preachers and still do. I don't think God is a respecter of persons. I think He will use anyone He can to get His word out in these last days. It is the heart that God looks at, not the gender. We are all equal in his eyes. He sees us as his children. Of all the pastors I have heard, I have never heard one against a woman during God's work in the church. We really need to seek and pray for God's guidance in this area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randi Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I believe basically in men preaching the Word and I believe that if women are given the gift of teaching than they should use that gift. God gives to us gifts that we will use them. In today's world too many men have turned from the responsibilty of being the spiritual leader and the women picked up the ball. God wants for us to spread His word and if the men aren't doing it I see nothing wrong with the women doing it, if they are filled with the Holy Spirit and have the gift to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s8nfighter Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? Let's take a look at what he is saying. 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. Are we not all to submit to one authority? That authority being Christ. So tha is good advice. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. Paul is not saying that God does not allow a woman to teach but that he does no permit it. Right or wrong, that is the choice Paul made. Authority over a man? In what regard is he speaking? In Godly things? The LORD says there will come a time when when no one will teach his brother or his neighbor the things of God. Jer. 31 That time came with the resurection of Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit. We all have one Master, one God and one Savior. Do we not. You share that, no matter who you are and you are doing well. Darrell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WenC Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 This part of chapter 2 of Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roseangela Agunda Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I agree with the teachings of Paul, is in order with the word of God women are to be submitted under the authority of their husbands or their churches. This is so because women tend to stray away easily and can lead many people astray. Women always need to be controlled and because God is the one who created us he knew that very well and placed women under authority. That is why he even created Adam first the eve and gave Adam the opportunity to name her, he said this is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrstoler Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I believe that women in ministry need to read that part of scripture from time to time to stay focus on the ministry and not on self. They know that God called them by the fruit that they bare. What I am trying to say is as a woman myself I sometimes get emotional and tend to put self into some situations when it really isn't about me. We have a lot to deal with and we should separate the things that we deal with into catagory of inportance. If your situation is more important than God it is time to make sure that you were really called to the ministry. Because we never want to chase anyone away from God or the blood of that person will be on our hands. This goes for men too. It is just that women have to be extra careful because of the way we are perceived in ministry by some people. We are more education now then the woman back in Paul's time and we should know better. We just have to make sure that self or the flesh does not take over. I have seen it happen in some of the churches that I have attended. People have left the church eventhough the word of God went forth, but along with it bad examples of how a woman of God carry themselves in ministry was taught. Some woman in ministry caused woman who were really dedicated to God's word and His people to a bad reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
User Name Theophila Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I've been in churches who held that women cannot hold any position of authority, and in others where they could both teach and preach to both men and women. After much confusion and study I've arrived at the belief that women can teach and preach to both women and men with this caveat: If the woman is married, she teaches and preaches while in submission to her husband and with the blessing of the church leadership she's in, and under the protection of their covering... and if single, she's under the authority and covering of her pastor/ church authority, not out there on her own, for the following reasons: v11 Let a woman learn in silence in entire submission the meaning of the word used here:silence: "quietness, tranquility, stillness referring to a quiet life, think before one speaks. Not to talk at random, or talking too much, to not babble, & to not cause confusion." This passage is written to MARRIED women who were interrupting the teaching and disrupting the church services, asking foolish questions, which embarrassed their husbands, and should have been saved to ask him after going home. This passage is about ORDER in the church. v12 I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men (the meaning of the word used here:to have authority "Usurp authority, self appointed, undelegated authority, to domineer, seize by force, lord it over men. One acting by own authority, to seize by force a position that belongs to another. Domineering is witchcraft." I believe this is saying for a woman to teach and or preach, she is to be in submission to her husband (if she's married) and is released to teach/ preach to both men and women by those in authority in her church body. Submission is for the protection of women, not a means of enslavement or preventing their gifts from operating. Jesus broke the stigma toward women which existed in that society by appearing first to women after the resurrection and telling them to go tell His disciples what they had seen. Paul spoke of Pheobe a deaconess or pastor of the church of Cenchrae and urged that she be received in a manner that is worthy of the saints, and "assist her as she has needs" Rom.16:1 God doesn't discriminate against women, but has provided for their covering and protection as the weaker vessels (not as the weak minded vessels as some believe). Acts 2:14-18: The Spirit was poured out on ALL flesh, upon sons and daughters, who shall prophecy the will of God. Thank you so much for your careful study and wise reply Jan Mary. It has given a scriptural answer to a question that has troubled me. I have just joined this study and am encouraged by the love for Jesus around the world. Thanks to all of you and especially Pastor Wilson! Angela Norell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hungry for more of God Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I may not be right but I tend towards Paul's instructions being intended to deal with the specific issues rather than general instructions. Women were being deceived, some were spreading this deception and needed to be quietened. In the present day there are women who have been gifted by the Holy Spirit and have powerful ministries, this is also echoed in the old testament with the likes of Debra. I agree that women should be submitted to their husbands and believe that both men and women should be submitted to those in authority over us. This is for our own protection. That was part of the problem in Ephesus, some women were not submitting to those in authority. As a women I also believe that we need to be aware that we may possibly be more open to deception and so guard against it. Thank you everyone for giving such balanced replies, it certainly helped me with a passage I have struggled with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? I believe God gives men and women gifts as He deems fit for his purposes. Not the narrow view of some. I believe the record in I Timothy speaks to a situation of individual Church discipline. I believe the western church can be as legalistic as 1st century Jewish leadership. God can call anyone for His purposes. That is the Biblical record from Genesis to Revelation. All things are possible with God said Gabriel to Mary -- who is any man to say whether a woman has or has not been called to the gospel ministry. The works and fruit of person verify the call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewell Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 I believe the cultural differences between Paul's time and the 21st century are vastly different and there is a need to assess those differences in the light of how a woman should conduct herself in the area of teaching or leading in the church. My views: A domineering attitude is not a proper tool for teaching (whether by man or woman). God's gifts to us should never be wasted but should be used in a way that honors him. In such a circumstance, a woman may find herself using a teaching gift in the church, not as an act of rebellion or domination, but as a loving act in bringing others to Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmaus Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Our little country church would have been locked up many years ago if it hadn't been for women who were there to keep the doors open and the church going. Everyone isn't called to be a preacher or a teacher, but those that are need to step up and do the work the Lord has called them to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KWADWO Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Dear friends, since this is a topic in which various Christ-loving groups disagree, let's be especially careful to state our views with Christian love and gentleness. Denomination bashing and unloving attitudes are cause for suspension of Forum privileges. Q5. (1 Timothy 2:11-15) How should Paul's instructions about women teaching and leading in the church be applied in the twenty-first century? How do you support your view? Dear All, I agree perfectly with the above quotes. The Holy spirit empowers both men and women and in the Bible God used some 'ordinary' men and women to accomplish some great task for Himself. God uses us to accomplish task for Himself and He can choose to use either a man or a woman. Pauls' teaching of this must be contextualised. The church was knew and the cultural did not allow women to play major roles in society. He therefore did not want that to enter the church. It would have therefore be wrong if women were allowed prominent roles in the church. The men would have opposed it and the could have affected the church. I am of the view that were the culture of the people do not prevent women from being themselves anywhere there are, then I don't see why did could not take up position of teaching and leading in the church. The gospel much be preached with cultural relevance. Thank you all. Collins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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