Pastor Ralph Posted April 8, 2010 Report Share Posted April 8, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickledilly Posted June 11, 2010 Report Share Posted June 11, 2010 Vouching for someone can be very risky and certainly not wise in most cases. I think Paul knew Onesimus so well by this point that he had no reservations about making this offer to Philemon. If Onesimus had grown so mature in Christ that he was willing to go back to face his former master, Onesimus was mature enough to be trustworthy in this possible debt. I also think Paul trusted Philemon's response to be wise, gracious, and fair. Knowing that everything belongs to God in the first place, I think Paul mostly trusted the LORD's work and provision in this situation. He was demonstrating the way Christ took on our debt to secure freedom for us (and possibly reminding Philemon of that). Our sin created an obligation we could never satisfy, but Jesus stepped in to pay it for us and offer reconciliation. I've never been faced with this type of difficult decision. There's such a fine line between enabling someone/creating dependence and launching someone into a new life. I can't judge people, but I am biblically instructed to observe/evaluate their deeds/actions. Financially vouching for another would be a matter of serious prayer for discernment and direction. Thanks so much for this great Bible study, Pastor Ralph! It's been challenging, but rewarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodR Posted June 12, 2010 Report Share Posted June 12, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus's debts to Philemon? Is this wise in all cases? Why does Paul do it here? How does Christ vouch for us? When should we vouch for our Christian brothers and sisters? Paul knew both men and believed they would not take advantage of the situation. Even if they did, he did what he believed Christ would have done. In the end that's all we are asked to do. Christ vouched for us by taking our place on the cross to restore our relationship with God. He paid the ultimate price for our sin and sent us back to God with His own righteousness. We should vouch (bear witness) for our Christian brothers and sisters whenever it honors God to do so. Thanks so much to those of you who have entered into a discussion over these questions. I've enjoyed the dialog and have gained insight and understanding from you all. "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Paul DiMino Posted June 12, 2010 Report Share Posted June 12, 2010 Paul gave his reputation,as surety,for resolution of differences,on the parts of both men,to the other.I believe this was much more dear to Paul,than mere money.He bound himself,and his credibility,to his faith in Our Lord's power to bring peace, through faith, to those who call upon his name.Jesus said he would not be ashamed before The Father of those who were not ashamed of Him before men.When faced with anything as difficult as the decision to give a Christian reference for another,it is best to pray,and wait upon Our Lord for direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marloes Posted June 13, 2010 Report Share Posted June 13, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iam4-1god Posted June 13, 2010 Report Share Posted June 13, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iam4-1god Posted June 13, 2010 Report Share Posted June 13, 2010 I was wrong! What would have happened to me if someone hadn't stepped out in faith to lead me to Christ? So, I want to change my answer to-sticking up for someone-giving them a chance-that is the right thing to do. Tell the truth, always! But, as much as we can, stick up for our brothers and sisters in Christ. We all need a little hand up from time to time. So, we should not be afraid to lend on from time to time. Let God be the Judge of the situation, always! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delivered Posted June 13, 2010 Report Share Posted June 13, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus debts to Philemon? Is this wise in all cases? I would have to answer No it isnt always wise to pay anothers debt! Why does Paul do it here? Onesimus was now useful, he was useful to Paul in doing the Lords work, even more than Philemon could imagine. He was a man worthy of hire and Paul wanted to keep him with him, but wrongs had to be made right, and if the mistakes Onesimus made could not be paid by Onesimus, and were too high to be written off, Paul offered to pay it, therefore Paul was speaking on behalf of the usefulness of this slave, who is now worthy of his hire. How does Christ vouch for us? We also should be worthy of our hire, the cross paid our debt, let our lives be one that reflect our usefulness, as a life lived giving glory to God. When should we vouch for our Christian brothers and sisters? I believe the when will be determined by the Holy Spirit and by the conduct of the brother or sister. Another great lesson, "thank you" for your efforts in bringing the Word to our hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted June 13, 2010 Report Share Posted June 13, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickledilly Posted June 14, 2010 Report Share Posted June 14, 2010 I like the train of thought from Delivered...that Onesimus had been made useful in Christ, his worth much greater now than a slave to Paul and to Philemon. Onesimus had been transformed and was living up to the very meaning of his name. Christ has certainly given us far greater worth by paying off our insurmountable debt to sin and has transformed us into useful servants of God! I also like what Stan said about Paul giving Philemon the opportunity "to show the same faith and trust in Onesimus" that he himself now had in the man. He was vouching for Onesimus' proven new character and integrity, which Philemon had no chance to witness. He was confirming that Philemon could believe the change and act accordingly to extend forgiveness, mercy, and acceptance. This would be Philemon's opportunity to demonstrate his own faith in Christ's redemptive work. It can be very hard to accept someone who has wronged you. We're not instructed to blindly believe someone's claim to be a Christian - many people make that claim without ever displaying evidence of a changed heart. (Think of how Paul told the churches to evaluate the character/reputation of men and women before trusting them in positions of leadership.) We're to observe and judge the evidence of a genuinely transformed heart (that's not judging the person), and receive a repentant sinner just as He received us. I think Paul's main goal here was restoration between the 2 men, just as Christ restored our relationship with the Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masika Posted June 14, 2010 Report Share Posted June 14, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus's debts to Philemon? Is this wise in all cases? Why does Paul do it here? How does Christ vouch for us? When should we vouch for our Christian brothers and sisters? Paul genuinely loved Onesimus. Paul showed his love by personally guaranteeing payment for any stolen goods or wrongs for which Onesimus might be responsible. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foofee's Nana Posted June 14, 2010 Report Share Posted June 14, 2010 Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WALT39 Posted June 14, 2010 Report Share Posted June 14, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus debts to Philemon? Is this wise in all cases? Why does Paul do it here? How does Christ vouch for us? When should we vouch for our Christian brothers and sisters? Philemon 18-19 - 18If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me. 19I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s8nfighter Posted June 15, 2010 Report Share Posted June 15, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbisu Posted June 15, 2010 Report Share Posted June 15, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PATCH Posted June 15, 2010 Report Share Posted June 15, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylverd Posted June 15, 2010 Report Share Posted June 15, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLD GARY Posted June 15, 2010 Report Share Posted June 15, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bower Posted June 15, 2010 Report Share Posted June 15, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD Posted June 15, 2010 Report Share Posted June 15, 2010 NO, this is not a wise thing to do in ALL cases - reason being, even when people purpose to do the right thing events can occur that prevents them from doing as they intended. . . Paul vouches for Onesimus to strengthen the testimony of him being born again and becoming a new and different person. Paul vouching for Onesimus to Philemon, whom Onesimus had wronged had the ability to bring reconciliation between these two brothers. . . 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (NRSV) 17 So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us; we entreat you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Christ vouches for us through His office as Intercessor and Advocate before the Throne of God. . . We should vouch for each other for the same reasons - when it can aide reconciliation and restoration and as intercessors in our prayer life. . . Galatians 6:1-5 (NRSV) 1 My friends, if anyone is detected in a transgression, you who have received the Spirit should restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness. Take care that you yourselves are not tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if those who are nothing think they are something, they deceive themselves. 4 All must test their own work; then that work, rather than their neighbor's work, will become a cause for pride. 5 For all must carry their own loads. Romans 15:1-6 (NRSV) 1 We who are strong ought to put up with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. 2 Each of us must please our neighbor for the good purpose of building up the neighbor. 3 For Christ did not please himself; but, as it is written, "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me." 4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, so that by steadfastness and by the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope. 5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in harmony with one another, in accordance with Christ Jesus, 6 so that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking His Face Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanks Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus's debts to Philemon? Is this wise in all cases? Why does Paul do it here? How does Christ vouch for us? When should we vouch for our Christian brothers and sisters? To vouch for others is not wise in all cases Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janel Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Q3 In the sight of the circular world definitely it is unwise. However for Paul he is adamant and believe that Onesimus was a new being since he was the one and also Philemon owes Paul and this may be a pay back time from Philemon. Christ vouches for us through His death on the cross,freeing us from our sins so that we can enjoy eternal life. Forgiveness and love of neighbour is what we learned from our God. So whenever a person is down and out and find no way out that is the time we should step in to help. Whatever little goes a long way. As Jesus said: "Whatsoever you do to the least of these people you are doing unto me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia A Posted June 16, 2010 Report Share Posted June 16, 2010 Q3. (Philemon 18-19) Paul vouches for Onesimus and puts up his money (at least in theory) to cover Onesimus's debts to Philemon? Is this wise in all cases? Why does Paul do it here? How does Christ vouch for us? When should we vouch for our Christian brothers and sisters? It would not be wise in all cases to "put up money" for those who are in debt as some may need to deal with the reasons they are in debt. However, Onesimus is now a brother in Christ and therefore Paul wants to help and encourage him. He will vourch for Onesimus just as christ died for us on the cross. We need to help our Christian brothers and sisiters just as Christ did for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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